Henaki Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 damn did i not hit up the right house a few days ago? people gettin stars like candy. also jesus christ what the hell happened to this thread in like 1 day.
ATGMantenbo Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 snip first of all, I'm not really getting what jiyuna said 100% that's why I bothered and posted here to discuss it with u ppl; I wouldn't have bothered posting here if I understood it a 100%. this tier list will die in a mere month, but this idea of mirror "matchup difficulties" will remain and apply to tierlists across Japan according to what jiyuna said. Anyway, I get the simple math behind matchup charts; don't worry that is if Calculus 4 lvl student doesn't cut it. and matchup charts go by win/loss ratios not by difficulty .. mixing those in one chart is like mixing oranges with apples in one bag or like saying 4 kilograms + 3 miles = ?. "certain mirrors are more diffucult than others" > I agree but how do we interpret that in a tier list to make it more complete? I know we can not use it in a matchup chart.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 damn did i not hit up the right house a few days ago? people gettin stars like candy. also jesus christ what the hell happened to this thread in like 1 day. Jiyuna posted. then people felt trolled and it became a downward spiral. you know dustloop being dustloop.
farranpoison Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 first of all, I'm not really getting what jiyuna said 100% that's why I bothered and posted here to discuss it with u ppl; I wouldn't have bothered posting here if I understood it a 100%. this tier list will die in a mere month, but this idea of mirror "matchup difficulties" will remain and apply to tierlists across Japan according to what jiyuna said. Anyway, I get the simple math behind matchup charts; don't worry that is if Calculus 4 lvl student doesn't cut it. and matchup charts go by win/loss ratios not by difficulty .. mixing those in one chart is like mixing oranges with apples in one bag or like saying 4 kilograms + 3 miles = ?. "certain mirrors are more diffucult than others" > I agree but how do we interpret that in a tier list to make it more complete? I know we can not use it in a matchup chart. You're free to say that certain mirrors are harder than others. However, you cannot make up numbers to represent that difficulty using matchup terminology like 3-7 or 6-4 or whatever. Just to make sure you get it. As for how to represent mirror difficulty, hey, it's not my problem. Someone else slave away to try and figure it out. I'm just here for the logic.
Henaki Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 yo motherfuckers. drink some tea, smoke a blunt and take a nap. yall arguin bout some dumb shit.
SansProtocol Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 yo motherfuckers. drink some tea, smoke a blunt and take a nap. yall arguin bout some dumb shit.
Henaki Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 farranpoison i remove any opinion rights you are entitled to. no one listen to him and argue about something else equally stupid please.
farranpoison Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 if only dumb shit was noticeable in DL What happened to being banned, bro? O_o farranpoison i remove any opinion rights you are entitled to. no one listen to him and argue about something else equally stupid please. Hey, I did my part. I'm done now. Now to see what else will inevitably come up.
Sophisticat Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 Posting controversial information: 9-1, Dustloop disadvantage.
Sahgren Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 Posting controversial information: 9-1, Dustloop disadvantage. Really? Always seemed more like a 9.5-0.5 to me, Dustloop's got it bad on that one.
farranpoison Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 It's more like a 0-0. The losers are the audience.
ATGMantenbo Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 You're free to say that certain mirrors are harder than others. However, you cannot make up numbers to represent that difficulty using matchup terminology like 3-7 or 6-4 or whatever. Just to make sure you get it. As for how to represent mirror difficulty, hey, it's not my problem. Someone else slave away to try and figure it out. I'm just here for the logic. you mean I can not use 0 to 10 scaling system for liters if I used it for kilograms beforehand? sorry bro but matchups, difficulty, liters.... etc can be rationlized, scaled, using any system you please .. the thing I'm looking for is a conversion factor or something of the like... I guess my logic was correct from the very start but did not know how to express it in a correct way ...
Synthesis Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 Think of it like this. If the difficulty for Litchi against everyone was even, and the difficulty for Bang against everyone was the same, but Litchi had a harder mirror, Bang would be placed higher because he has a higher chance of winning. Is this making sense at all to anyone?
jiyuna Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 Hey, I did my part. I'm done now. Now to see what else will inevitably come up. What part did you do, exactly? Completely missing the point and trying to disprove accepted Japanese ranking methods using 2nd grade math and "logic"? Yeah, I guess you did do it pretty well. Obviously, with perfect play, every mirror match will boil down to 5-5. You really think the top Japanese players don't know this? I play at an arcade with Tsujikawa/Chou(SBO winners)/Mame/Uisora/ANG/Himajin/etc. etc... These guys are playing on a completely different level from the rest of Japan (Americans aren't even playing the same game). I can't reiterate this enough, these players are literally Gods of Blazblue, and they each play at least 5 different characters. Everyday the arcade is busy; even if they aren't playing, they're sitting there watching matches and discussing the game. Tonight when I go, I'll let them know some netplayer from Illinois disproved everything they've been discussing for months. I'll try explaining again for you and anyone else who's interested in advanced character analysis- you're saying a 5-5 matchup between two different characters is the same as any mirror match in the game. Japan is saying that for a "normal" mirror match, this holds true- just play your character, and the better player will win. For a difficult mirror (which you say is the same as any other matchup), you need to play very differently and you lose a lot of your tools which make up the foundation of your character- when this happens, luck becomes a much larger factor in the matchup compared to the "normal" 5-5 mirrors. And if you've played fighting games for a while, you know that gimmicky/lucky/dice-roll characters are always ranked lower due to lack of stability. (Fuerte, Satsuki, grapplers in general). So yes, congratulations on using your logic and ability to add + divide, but that's not what the Japanese are saying about mirror matches. Characters with a bad mirror like Arakune have much less control over the match, are much more likely to get randomed out, and therefor the Japanese take that into consideration when ranking them overall. If you still don't believe me, come to Japan and watch the way the best players counter-pick each other- no one ever counter picks Mame's Ragna with Ragna, but people always lose to Hima Arakune and then counter with Arakune (and win way more than they should). Tl;dr- Yes, with perfect play all mirrors are 5-5; but with perfect play, people would block Litchi's mixup 100% of the time and Lambda would never let you near her. Stop thinking tier lists are about "logic" and "math" and just listen to players that could double perfect you with their 9th alt char. EDIT- also maybe someone should start a mirror match ranking thread to keep this thread on topic.
ATGMantenbo Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 I think I grasped this new concept but I still do not understand how to convert from win/ratios to mirror-difficulty ratios and combine those together in a tier list ... I will do more research when I have free time. In the meanwhile, I'm done with this shitty thread .. ATG out pm me if you want to discuss it further.
SansProtocol Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 Jiyuna, I now crown thee King of Trolling Dustloop Threads.
jiyuna Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 "I don't understand what he's saying, so he's trolling." Never change, Dustloop.
SansProtocol Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 "I don't understand what he's saying, so he's trolling." Never change, Dustloop. I understand it, but the fact that your two posts caused 10+ pages of pointless bickering was what I was talking about.
C0R Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 (edited) Obviously, with perfect play, every mirror match will boil down to 5-5. You agree, good. Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way to win. This may have been lost in translation but... The matchup chart is meant to provide insight on how well characters toolboxes butt heads with other character's, to my knowledge. Same toolbox, same odds. Any speculation or metagame theory beyond that is irrelevant and should be redirected. I would associate "most optimal way to win" with "perfect play" in this case. Thus, you're agreeing with the statement you're attempting to discredit. Edited November 5, 2010 by C0R
Yoshara Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 To be fair, he is reffering to what goes into ranking characters on a tier list, and not just a match up chart.
C0R Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 (edited) That is a valid point, I just don't feel his associated argument is relevant; as this is the matchup thread. While match-ups heavily influence tier lists, this isn't the discussion to field such a debate. Edited November 5, 2010 by C0R
Eshi Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 (edited) I think I grasped this new concept but I still do not understand how to convert from win/ratios to mirror-difficulty ratios and combine those together in a tier list ... I will do more research when I have free time.All you have to do is put a single number in the mirror match-up. EX for AR v Ar, put a 30, for Ragna put a 60, etc. Edited November 5, 2010 by Eshi
worldjem7 Posted November 5, 2010 Author Posted November 5, 2010 and the japanese Ara forgot the other Ara because he's Ara right? good god .... sigh these numbers are not win/loss ratios .. they are difficulty ratios .. correct me with logic if you think I'm way off instead of posting dumb shit Sigh... Technically, they are win/loss ratios. Look at the first post. In fact, I think now would be a good time to point everyone in the direction of the bottom of the first post where I listed a FAQ for most of these questions when I first made this thread. This not a tier list. I repeat: NOT A TIER LIST It's a match-up chart. Character placement doesn't matter, MATCH-UPS DO! Worry more about whether your character has decent match-ups or not. It's been said time and time again the format of how this chart works.
ToastCrust Posted November 5, 2010 Posted November 5, 2010 "This chart is dumb, Japs do it better." "But their methodology makes no sense in context of our chart!" "This chart is dumb." "TROLLAN KING OMG DUSTLOOP"
Recommended Posts