BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Zeromegaman]

Dear Mori, what did I just read?

[Skye]

I'll try explaining again for you and anyone else who's interested in advanced character analysis- you're saying a 5-5 matchup between two different characters is the same as any mirror match in the game. Japan is saying that for a "normal" mirror match, this holds true- just play your character, and the better player will win. For a difficult mirror (which you say is the same as any other matchup), you need to play very differently and you lose a lot of your tools which make up the foundation of your character- when this happens, luck becomes a much larger factor in the matchup compared to the "normal" 5-5 mirrors. And if you've played fighting games for a while, you know that gimmicky/lucky/dice-roll characters are always ranked lower due to lack of stability. (Fuerte, Satsuki, grapplers in general).

I don't want to impose on super high level pro jp onry SBO winning ideals, but when changing the fundamentals to better suit an even match up, like a mirror, it goes without saying that both characters will need to make that adjustment, since this character is very good at capitalizing on their own weaknesses, similar to Tager mirrors where Tager can easily Anti air another Tager. The factors that come in here, that being luck, gimmicks, etc etc, are not dependent, crucial, nor exclusive to the match up, the main detail about match ups are character traits and strategies, things like gimmicks, ticks, yomi, buppa, etc are player factors, independent from match ups.

If Hima loses in Arakune mirrors, that means that Hima is bad at Arakune mirrors and doesn't know how to approach the match up, not that the match up is 7-3 or something like that, Hima would have to consider a change in strategy and approach, work on his footsies, etc. It may be a tedious up hill fight, but it's like that for both players, at perfect play.

And match ups assumes perfect play, or at the very least that the players in question are of equal skill with their respective characters. The trick with mirrors is to understand how well can Ragna capitalize on Ragna's weaknesses, being average mix up, easy to DP/barrier block strings, low health, etc. With that is mind, it's natural, like any match up, to assume a specific strategy. Gimmicks, luck and all that are considered after the fact, and by the player, not the character.

I'll admit that I understand the concept that Jin vs Jin will feel and play out differently than say.....Jin vs Lambda, but that's in the same respect that Jin vs Bang will feel and play out differently than Jin vs Ragna.

Different character to fight, different strategies applied, and similarly, if you don't know the match up, you're gonna lose.

That's just my view on things.

*strolls off*

[Dacidbro]

I can't believe that people took 10 fucking pages and STILL don't get what Jiyuna was saying

It's not even complex

Look at a Tager mirror. Is it a weird as fuck matchup that involves people getting randomed out all the time? Hell yes. 7-3.

Look at Ragna mirror. Fucking so normal. 5-5.

OK EVERYONE GETS IT NOW GREAT HOLY SHIT DUSTLOOP THIS IS EASY

EDIT: Nevermind, Skye still is trying to argue something that Jiyuna already knows. Dustloop has no hope.

Skye, in an Arakune mirror, both players are attempting to read their opponent with an attack that will likely immediately lead to 100% curse, meaning a possibility of immediately winning the match post one mix up. In no other mirror is the matchup THAT erratic, meaning luck plays a big factor no matter how good you are, meaning Arakune is not as strong of a character because his mirror match is so erratic meaning no matter how good you are your mirror will still be an annoying stain on your character that anyone could win because it's so erratic and other better characters have more controllable mirrors

Edited November 5, 2010 by Dacidbro

[Black Onslaught]

the last 10 pages needs to be made into an article

[Aureliano]

I can't believe that people took 10 fucking pages and STILL don't get what Jiyuna was saying

It's not even complex

Look at a Tager mirror. Is it a weird as fuck matchup that involves people getting randomed out all the time? Hell yes. 7-3.

Look at Ragna mirror. Fucking so normal. 5-5.

OK EVERYONE GETS IT NOW GREAT HOLY SHIT DUSTLOOP THIS IS EASY

EDIT: Nevermind, Skye still is trying to argue something that Jiyuna already knows. Dustloop has no hope.

Skye, in an Arakune mirror, both players are attempting to read their opponent with an attack that will likely immediately lead to 100% curse, meaning a possibility of immediately winning the match post one mix up. In no other mirror is the matchup THAT erratic, meaning luck plays a big factor no matter how good you are, meaning Arakune is not as strong of a character because his mirror match is so erratic meaning no matter how good you are your mirror will still be an annoying stain on your character that anyone could win because it's so erratic and other better characters have more controllable mirrors

To be honest this doesn't seem that different from regular Arakune matchups.

[Skye]

EDIT: Nevermind, Skye still is trying to argue something that Jiyuna already knows. Dustloop has no hope.

Skye, in an Arakune mirror, both players are attempting to read their opponent with an attack that will likely immediately lead to 100% curse, meaning a possibility of immediately winning the match post one mix up. In no other mirror is the matchup THAT erratic, meaning luck plays a big factor no matter how good you are, meaning Arakune is not as strong of a character because his mirror match is so erratic meaning no matter how good you are your mirror will still be an annoying stain on your character that anyone could win because it's so erratic and other better characters have more controllable mirrors

Yo damn, Dacid, I don't even post in this thread, why you getting salty at me?

Arakune can backdash his own poor ground to ground pressure, so that mitigates any worry of getting caught in a 100% mix up.

Arakune mirrors handle the exact same in CS as they did in CT, it's all air footsies and mutual zoning until someone gets cursed, not mix ups. It's not sporadic at all, unless both of them are cursed.

[Beautiful Death]

Oh I think I get it. So character dittos are harder if they are confusing and random?

Mmmm. Brood probably subs Metaknight for other Olimars, in that case. Stupid 3-7 ditto match up.

Well boogle me barnacles, I think this should be made into a poll.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Beautiful Death

[bbq sauce]

wtf are people are people talkin smash for.

look at like this.

Match up numbers aren't necessarily to say who has the advantage exactly, but, to simply say, if two equally skilled players played a set of 10 (more accurately 100, as you can't get the .5s down in a set of 10), which character would come away with how many victories..

5-5 means if 2 equal players played a set of 10, Player 1 would win 5, and player 2 would win 5.

Basically if character A, is forced to abandon their main game plan, adapt to the other character, and make no mistakes.. while character B plays their typical game.. Character A may go even with B, but, A is having a way harder time with the match up than B is.. so it's 5-5, but, has a disadvantagoues feel for A.

Some mirrors feel this way on both sides.. and as such, if say Fumo played Hima in 100 sets, it likely would not go 50 Fumo - 50 Hima, even though they're arguably equal and playing the same character.

Edited November 5, 2010 by bbq sauce

[farranpoison]

Basic statistics and probability: The probability of getting a heads or a tails on flipping a coin is 50/50. Now go and flip a coin 100 times. Chances are, it's not going to be a perfect 50/50 result. That's just how the world works. But that doesn't mean that it changes the fact that the probability of the coin flip is 50/50. You may get 35/65 or 60/40, but the hard fact is that the statistical average is always half/half.

This is a matchup chart, thus we speak statistics and assume everyone is playing of an equal skill level. If you want to discuss human error, then it should be not in this thread but in a difficulty tier list thread or something.

[Henaki]

why does skye have a gameplay badge.

what the fuck.

[St1ckBuG]

Jiyuna. Dagawd.

[Henaki]

i could probably write a list of 100 people who deserve a gameplay badge above skye, but that would be really hard. just imagine i went through the effort of writing that list.

[Halcyone3]

Tl;dr- Yes, with perfect play all mirrors are 5-5; but with perfect play, people would block Litchi's mixup 100% of the time and Lambda would never let you near her. Stop thinking tier lists are about "logic" and "math" and just listen to players that could double perfect you with their 9th alt char.

EDIT- also maybe someone should start a mirror match ranking thread to keep this thread on topic.

He said it here, they do not account for both players playing perfectly, which is how america does it, its 2 fundamentally different ways of going about making a tier/match-up chart, so every1 needs to just shut the hell up and stop trying to mesh both logics up.

Am i the only 1 that finds it hillarious that America is the one that accounts for players performing perfectly all the time in their tier/match-up list?

[Remiri]

OK, what I don't understand here is why the JP high-skill players would use nomenclature like 6-4 or 7-3 to describe a situation of a harder mirror then ragna vs ragna. That terminology is best left for situations of non mirrors because it actually makes sense. There is no way for the mind to truly 'wrap around' a mirror match being 6-4, you simply can't explain that away there are too many loose ends.

Allow me to offer an analogy to this situation that will hopefully clear things up and stop this annoying posting garbage, if you take a 7-3 mirror match and then flip it (i.e. turn it around), and continue to go to west Philadelphia born and raised on the playground is where I spent most of my days. Chillin out, maxin, relaxing all cool, and all shooting some b-ball outside of school. When a couple of guys who were up to no good and started making trouble in my neighborhood. I got in one lil fight and my mom got scared and said "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air".

[bbq sauce]

Basic statistics and probability: The probability of getting a heads or a tails on flipping a coin is 50/50. Now go and flip a coin 100 times. Chances are, it's not going to be a perfect 50/50 result. That's just how the world works. But that doesn't mean that it changes the fact that the probability of the coin flip is 50/50. You may get 35/65 or 60/40, but the hard fact is that the statistical average is always half/half.

This is a matchup chart, thus we speak statistics and assume everyone is playing of an equal skill level. If you want to discuss human error, then it should be not in this thread but in a difficulty tier list thread or something.

kk. I will make this as laymens as possible.

Even match - all your normal "can do's" and "can't do's" apply.

Advantageous match - Add new "can do's"

Disadvantageous match - add more "can't do's"

Some mirrors are straight forward, normal can do stuff applies, normal can't do stuff applies.

Some mirrors can add new "can do" stuff, (reference jiyuna's post about ragna v ragna)

Some mirrors turn some of your "can do's" into "can't do's".

Apparently (according to credible players, ie Zong, jiyuna, JAPAN) Arakune mirror is a match that turns a lot of your normal "can do's" into "can't". And adds no new options.. Thus both players are playing like they are at a disadvantage.. so I mean, yeah, I guess mathmatically, a mirror has to be 5-5.. but, it plays like 4-6 for both players, as they are losing options and gaining nothing in their stead.

Also, shoutouts to this site discreditign the stickbug match up chart because it was American, and not from the all mighty Nippon-desu motherland. Now, all of sudden somebody drops a concept that people can't wrap their heads around and now random PSN guy is able to discredit the Japanese.

Edited November 5, 2010 by bbq sauce

[Black Onslaught]

just throw "sugoi" on that matchup chart and it will be the new bible

[bbq sauce]

Sugoi! Team St1ckBuG BBCS Match-up cHeart 2.6

[Black Onslaught]

Sugoi! Team St1ckBuG BBCS Match-up cHeart 2.6

bible status, nigga

[farranpoison]

kk. I will make this as laymens as possible.

Even match - all your normal "can do's" and "can't do's" apply.

Advantageous match - Add new "can do's"

Disadvantageous match - add more "can't do's"

Some mirrors are straight forward, normal can do stuff applies, normal can't do stuff applies.

Some mirrors can add new "can do" stuff, (reference jiyuna's post about ragna v ragna)

Some mirrors turn some of your "can do's" into "can't do's".

Apparently (according to credible players, ie Zong, jiyuna, JAPAN) Arakune mirror is a match that turns a lot of your normal "can do's" into "can't". And adds no new options.. Thus both players are playing like they are at a disadvantage.. so I mean, yeah, I guess mathmatically, a mirror has to be 5-5.. but, it plays like 4-6 for both players, as they are losing options and gaining nothing in their stead.

Also, shoutouts to this site discreditign the stickbug match up chart because it was American, and not from the all mighty Nippon-desu motherland. Now, all of sudden somebody drops a concept that people can't wrap their heads around and now random PSN guy is able to discredit the Japanese.

I know what he means by certain mirrors are harder than others. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that you can't use matchup statistics and odds like 7-3 or 4-6 or whatever to determine the difficulty of the mirror. In terms of statistics, mirrors are always equal. Now, if we made a mirror ranking chart, with the hardest mirror being a 10 and the least hardest being a 1, that would be a much better way of doing things.

[Halcyone3]

kk. I will make this as laymens as possible.

Even match - all your normal "can do's" and "can't do's" apply.

Advantageous match - Add new "can do's"

Disadvantageous match - add more "can't do's"

Some mirrors are straight forward, normal can do stuff applies, normal can't do stuff applies.

Some mirrors can add new "can do" stuff, (reference jiyuna's post about ragna v ragna)

Some mirrors turn some of your "can do's" into "can't do's".

Apparently (according to credible players, ie Zong, jiyuna, JAPAN) Arakune mirror is a match that turns a lot of your normal "can do's" into "can't". And adds no new options.. Thus both players are playing like they are at a disadvantage.. so I mean, yeah, I guess mathmatically, a mirror has to be 5-5.. but, it plays like 4-6 for both players, as they are losing options and gaining nothing in their stead.

Also, shoutouts to this site discreditign the stickbug match up chart because it was American, and not from the all mighty Nippon-desu motherland. Now, all of sudden somebody drops a concept that people can't wrap their heads around and now random PSN guy is able to discredit the Japanese.

this, and as much as i agree that this way is better than just assuming that everyone is playing perfectly, this is still not the thread for that stuff, let's move back to the match-up thread we actually are supposed to be discussing.

[Spirit Juice]

Pretty sure my rock paper scissors analogy summed up all this discussion pretty nicely (i.e. it's retarded).

[Jourdal]

Sugoi! Team St1ckBuG BBCS Match-up cHeart 2.6

All i could think about was console AH2 was 2.5 when 2.6 was out

Also playing in Japan with top players and understanding their logic doesn't have the effect it used to =(. That's how we took SBO so easi-

nvm.

[The Noble Clap]

Isn't every mirror ever 5-5 due to the fact that even if you lose or gain an option or a specific combo, the other person loses/gains it as well. A difficulty rating could work though. Maybe we should put that for all matchups that are 5-5.

[Sophisticat]

Isn't every mirror ever 5-5 due to the fact that even if you lose or gain an option or a specific combo, the other person loses/gains it as well. A difficulty rating could work though. Maybe we should put that for all matchups that are 5-5.

I was going to post this exact thing, but this man beat me to it.

A separate chart for mirrors would be much more appropriate since this "advanced concept" has nothing to do with the matchup chart in question in the first place.

[Remiri]

Isn't every mirror ever 5-5 due to the fact that even if you lose or gain an option or a specific combo, the other person loses/gains it as well. A difficulty rating could work though. Maybe we should put that for all matchups that are 5-5.

You spin me right round baby right round