[CS1-CSE] Tsubaki Self-Improvement and Critique Thread

[Shruikon]

Thanks a lot Kiba.

I know I have some fundamental problems with my play right now - I let people get in too easily and then can't get them off me at all. I'm also really starting to think my reaction speed is absolutely awful. Rewatching it, I saw tons of times where I was getting couter hit because I attempted to anti-air or dash in a poke but my button got beat every single time, which just has the effect of me being scared to ever press buttons. I also wanna say I look a lot worse when I go up against Daedron or anyone who's clearly above me right now, but eh. Like, I don't have problems beating people who are weaker than me and are trying to play smart but I have great difficulty consistently beating people who are obviously mashing =/. And then there's people like you guys who are all way better than me and I just end up looking like a complete scrub :p

I don't think I charge cancelled much pressure in that session, but I've definitely started doing it more often in EX than I did in CS2 now. I remember I kept getting 2A CH'd after I charge cancelled and then attempted to continue pressure in a previous session though.

I think, against much better players than I, I try to not look terrible and end up thinking too much, because I know there were several moments where I missed the window for cancelling my gatling (like a couple times where my 2BB was blocked and I did nothing after it). I'm also definitely getting pressured and just falling back on CS2 combos or other bad habits and not being ready to confirm better combos when I do actually land a hit.

Regarding 3CC, yeah, I agree, I'm definitely using it way too much. I know a couple of times I accidentally got it instead of 2CC but even aside from that. I'm hoping that part of it is just because it's a new toy (since it was near useless in CS2) and I'll stop using it quite as recklessly.

Jump cancellable normals. Yes. Definitely need to start doing that because I don't think I've ever really used any jump-cancel pressure. And I need to fix that.

Match-up knowledge is definitely something I need to work on. I'm aiming to just sit and play a lot more games against a lot more people than I did in CS2 so that should help in the long run. Playing against someone who know a little of every character also helps (Dae literally played every character at least once against me a couple days ago :p)

One of the biggest problems that I've noticed recently is that I'm free to people who can jump. During those matches, Dae made Tsubaki's j.C look like a ridiculously good move, and I kept either attempting to 2C way too early or way too late.

I really need to start getting used to using EX combos in real matches. I'm using them fine in training mode and confirming them often against CPU but I keep falling back on CS2 combos or just not getting the most out of my confirms when I do hit (the 2B 5CC confirm in the 1st match that you pointed out, for example).

I'm gonna start working on blockstrings and combos off of less than ideal starters too. I definitely need to work on hitconfirming CH and FC combos and work on hitconfirming off hitting with a 2B, 2C, 6B, etc. I end up practicing mostly combos that start with 5A, 5B or 5C or something so I need to branch out desperately, especially since I'm never going to get a clean 5A or 5C hit confirm on someone like Dae.

For reference, my current EX BnBs that I've been practicing are:

5A > 5CC > 22C > 6CC > 236C > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B

5A > 5CC > 623C > j.214B(w) > j.C > j.C > j.236D > j.214B > 2B > 2CC > 236C > 214C > 22B

5A > 5CC > 623C > j.214B(w) > j.C > j.C > j.214D > 6CC > 236C > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B

22D > 3CC > RC > 6CC > 623C > j.236A(w) > j.214D > 5C(w)C > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B

3CC > RC > 2CC > IAD > j.CC > 5C > 2C into whatever depending on distance from corner

and also 5A > 5CC > 214214D > 623D > j.236D > j.214D > 2CC > IAD > j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B though I haven't landed that in a match yet. Still not looking for it enough I guess, or when I do try to look for it I can't get a clean 5CC hit in, so > refer to practicing combos with non-common starters.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. I really do want to get better and improve so I can actually compete with you guys, but right now I feel like I'm playing much worse than I ever did in CS2 and it's really quite frustrating and depressing, though I'm hoping part of is just me needing to complete the transition to EX.

[logichole]

Sounds like you and I are in pretty similar situations, Shruikon. I'd suggest us two getting some netplay matches in but West Coast USA <-> UK seems iffy at best.

(I actually procured a copy of CSE this week, so now I can get my head back in the game. I really do need to get some matches in against Stark, who lives across town... although Stark tends to just whup me in fighting games. Yikes.)

[Adelheid]

Sounds like you and I are in pretty similar situations, Shruikon. I'd suggest us two getting some netplay matches in but West Coast USA <-> UK seems iffy at best.

(I actually procured a copy of CSE this week, so now I can get my head back in the game. I really do need to get some matches in against Stark, who lives across town... although Stark tends to just whup me in fighting games. Yikes.)

Well you know, I do have a recording setup. If you stopped by we could record a lot of matches for this thread and both improve. Heh :3

[Shruikon]

Sounds like you and I are in pretty similar situations, Shruikon. I'd suggest us two getting some netplay matches in but West Coast USA <-> UK seems iffy at best.

(I actually procured a copy of CSE this week, so now I can get my head back in the game. I really do need to get some matches in against Stark, who lives across town... although Stark tends to just whup me in fighting games. Yikes.)

I'd be willing to test the connection out sometime, but yeah, it doesn't seem promising.

[Daedron]

I don't think I charge cancelled much pressure in that session, but I've definitely started doing it more often in EX than I did in CS2 now. I remember I kept getting 2A CH'd after I charge cancelled and then attempted to continue pressure in a previous session though.

Yeah, charge cancelling isn't safe and anyone who pays attention will most likely be able to beat you out of whatever you're going to pull off next, which is why it might be a good idea to sometimes just sit and block or backdash to try and make them whiff whatever they're throwing out (though this is really matchup dependant, cause certain characters will easily beat out a backdash with some of their moves into good damage). Make sure to mix up your charge cancels so you do not get predictable, something I don't always do cause I tend to charge cancel 5C a lot, mixing in charge cancels off of a 5B or 2B definately helps (just remember their levels are lower than 5C and 5CC so it's slightly easier for the opponent to hit you after). If you think someone is mashing on jab you can delay your strings to catch them, I sometimes do this with 5CC when I know my opponent knows I charge cancel after 5C and they start pressing jab in preperation for it, 5CC would hit them out of it if it's delayed and if it gets blocked I tend to go for 22C instead of the charge cancel to put yet another frame trap in there (and take off a primer as well)

Match-up knowledge is definitely something I need to work on. I'm aiming to just sit and play a lot more games against a lot more people than I did in CS2 so that should help in the long run. Playing against someone who know a little of every character also helps (Dae literally played every character at least once against me a couple days ago :p)

Yeah, that was fun. Even though I can't play over half the cast at all lol.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. I really do want to get better and improve so I can actually compete with you guys, but right now I feel like I'm playing much worse than I ever did in CS2 and it's really quite frustrating and depressing, though I'm hoping part of is just me needing to complete the transition to EX.

You'll get there, don't worry =)

Edited March 2, 2012 by Daedron

[Kiba]

I don't have problems beating people who are weaker than me and are trying to play smart but I have great difficulty consistently beating people who are obviously mashing =/. And then there's people like you guys who are all way better than me and I just end up looking like a complete scrub :p

If you are playing against mashers, use frame traps to score CHs:

5CC(delay)

5C > 6C

5CC > 6B

5BB(Delay)

In addition, you could use 2AA/5AA > throw to get some nice throw rejects. Doing those sort of blockstrings helps to identify who's really content in blocking.

And please. The only scrub here is BatousaiJ. Please remember that.

I don't think I charge cancelled much pressure in that session, but I've definitely started doing it more often in EX than I did in CS2 now. I remember I kept getting 2A CH'd after I charge cancelled and then attempted to continue pressure in a previous session though.

Remember you don't always have to charge cancel, you could end the pressure by using a jump cancel or 22C.

One of the biggest problems that I've noticed recently is that I'm free to people who can jump. During those matches, Dae made Tsubaki's j.C look like a ridiculously good move, and I kept either attempting to 2C way too early or way too late.

Daedron usually double jumps twice to bait AAs.

Exposed.

In that case, you could air grab him, or just run underneath him if AA'ing may be a problem.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. I really do want to get better and improve so I can actually compete with you guys, but right now I feel like I'm playing much worse than I ever did in CS2 and it's really quite frustrating and depressing, though I'm hoping part of is just me needing to complete the transition to EX.

EX Tsubaki may take a while to get used. It took me a while to finally understand the flow of things. You just need to keep playing and soon enough you'll adapt and it'll become second nature to you.

No probz.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Kiba

[Adelheid]

Yeah, charge cancelling isn't safe and anyone who pays attention will most likely be able to beat you out of whatever you're going to pull off next, which is why it might be a good idea to sometimes just sit and block or backdash to try and make them whiff whatever they're throwing out (though this is really matchup dependant, cause certain characters will easily beat out a backdash with some of their moves into good damage). Make sure to mix up your charge cancels so you do not get predictable, something I don't always do cause I tend to charge cancel 5C a lot, mixing in charge cancels off of a 5B or 2B definately helps (just remember their levels are lower than 5C and 5CC so it's slightly easier for the opponent to hit you after). If you think someone is mashing on jab you can delay your strings to catch them, I sometimes do this with 5CC when I know my opponent knows I charge cancel after 5C and they start pressing jab in preperation for it, 5CC would hit them out of it if it's delayed and if it gets blocked I tend to go for 22C instead of the charge cancel to put yet another frame trap in there (and take off a primer as well)

It's worth noting that 5CC is level 4, so when charge cancelled it's actually +0 on normal block. Not that that means you should be spamming it, since being obvious will negate the effect, but you can 5A after it to beat any punish attempt slower than a jab if you want to really call your opponent out.

[Daedron]

Daedron usually double jumps twice to bait AAs.

Exposed.

Yes, I am the only Tsubaki here who can jump 4 times...please keep that in mind

[Shruikon]

Yeah, that was fun. Even though I can't play over half the cast at all lol.

You at least know the normals and some basic stuff of them though, from what I saw? I literally only know that for like, 4 characters. Err, make that 3 with some of the changes in Extend.

If you are playing against mashers, use frame traps to score CHs:

5CC(delay)

5C > 6C

5CC > 6B

5BB(Delay)

In addition, you could use 2AA/5AA > throw to get some nice throw rejects. Doing those sort of blockstrings helps to identify who's really content in blocking

How tight is the gap between 5C > 6C and 5CC > 6B? Big enough to DP out but small enough to get CH if they use a normal?

Yes, I am the only Tsubaki here who can jump 4 times...please keep that in mind

You're just broken like that :p

[Kiba]

How tight is the gap between 5C > 6C and 5CC > 6B? Big enough to DP out but small enough to get CH if they use a normal?

Exactly.

[BatousaiJ]

The problem with 5CC > charge cancel shenanigans is that 5CC has a good deal of push back and even on regular block, you'll most likely be out of immediate jab range so you'll have to do a quick dash 5A to get in on them but then again, quick dash 5A after charge canceling is the first thing you should learn the timing for as it's crucial in charge cancel pressure because of push back and barrier- especially now in extend now that barrier/IB barrier has even greater push back.

Also, learn what is a tight block string and what has a tiny hole to catch people trying to mash jab or trying to throw break preemptively.

[Adelheid]

The problem with 5CC > charge cancel shenanigans is that 5CC has a good deal of push back and even on regular block, you'll most likely be out of immediate jab range so you'll have to do a quick dash 5A to get in on them but then again, quick dash 5A after charge canceling is the first thing you should learn the timing for as it's crucial in charge cancel pressure because of push back and barrier- especially now in extend now that barrier/IB barrier has even greater push back.

Also, learn what is a tight block string and what has a tiny hole to catch people trying to mash jab or trying to throw break preemptively.

Yes, this is what I meant, obviously 5A right out of it will totally whiff but if people want to punish with somewhat longer stuff, you can dash in 6A right out of them as fast as you're physically able to go back to neutral. I was actually just going back to edit the post to make this clearer when I realized it could be taken the wrong way, but then I was beaten to that note...

[Airk]

If you are playing against mashers, use frame traps to score CHs:

5CC(delay)

5C > 6C

Is this a good idea? With the reduced level of 5C, there's now a 7 frame gap between 5C and 6C, which is an imminently mashable window. 5CC > 6C is safer, at only 5 frames.

5BB(Delay)

Didn't we determine that 5BB is an auto-frametrap now?

And please. The only scrub here is BatousaiJ. Please remember that.

/raise :P

Edited March 2, 2012 by Airk

[Kiba]

Is this a good idea? With the reduced level of 5C, there's now a 7 frame gap between 5C and 6C, which is an imminently mashable window. 5CC > 6C is safer, at only 5 frames.

Depends on the player and the situation as to whether it's a good idea, but it does work.

5CC > 6C only works on hit.

Didn't we determine that 5BB is an auto-frametrap now?

Yea.

[BatousaiJ]

/raise :P

Oh, I didn't even see that comment by Kiba until you quoted it.

It's true though, I'm the worst Tsubaki on netplayyyyyy~ weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~

[Airk]

Depends on the player and the situation as to whether it's a good idea, but it does work.

5CC > 6C only works on hit.

I have no idea how I did not know this. -_-

Erm. Anyway. With the reduced level on 5C, there's no (dis)advantage to doing 6C after 5C as opposed to 5B or 5BB.

[shad0whiei]

Ok heres some videos of the first week of extend for me. Some (batousai) know how bad I am XD but lets hear what everyone has to say of things I need to work on or do more/stop doing.

One major thing I know I need to work on is when someone is in the air to stop blocking low (this isnt marvel or street fighter ><) I duno where I got the habit to auto block low when someones in the air but I need to stop lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXK5RdhntPE&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnDm-2SAXQk&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=2&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjYis-9l3-E&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=3&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BCiCssBmmk&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=4&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e23_7OWE4Rk&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=5&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2sTKvyIfMw&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=8&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcASt1M1bsQ&list=UUyrZjRGWlOsIsTKRBlLlR2A&index=9&feature=plcp

[Kiba]

Against TheNemesisAlex:

There's quite a bit of randomness going on, but when on Relius' wakeup, it may be a good idea to use 5A/2A, because if they whiff, you could quickly try to throw him, or like you did with 5B/5C, you could use a normal to punish the recovery and get a CH. Throwing would be the better option though, unless you're used to the timing of punishment with a normal. After you knocked Relius down, you opt to charge. I would recommend chasing after him instead to deliver pressure because getting in at neutral is quite difficult. There was quite a bit of random 3CC use, so be careful with those.

Against SwordofToan:

Avoid using j.D when Lambda throws swords at you. She could use 6D to hit you in the air. In addition, she could also pressure you after and YOU WILL get hit because there are a certain number of frames where you are unable to block. Your dives could also be beaten with 6D, so be careful using them. I think when you got in, you should do more than 5B > 2B > 22C (such as 2A/5A pressure, charge cancels sparingly, etc) because you want to stay in close against Lambda, you so not want her to get away. With the 6A combo, you could've finished it with the regular combo to have Lambda in the corner so you could continue your assault. Also, 6CC doesn't work after a 236D hit (unless it was a misinput or you tried to catch Toan pressing buttons perhaps?) You used stock and you let her get away in the process. At 2:10 You also could've ended the combo with j.214D rather than j.214C, because it would've given you time to get to her quicker.

Against Minoru_Hoshi:

At 0:48s, you got a CH with j.C and didn't manage to followup with it. You can get a full IAD combo from it, and then also happened in the match above. Also, try not to outpoke Jin after he uses 6B, it's +3 on block, and certainly not in your favour. You also wasted 2 stocks with the 6A combo. Again, you could've gotten him in the corner without the use of any to deliver more pressure. At 1:50 you opted for the air combo which made it easier for Jin to get out of the combo, especially because you jumped twice in the combo. Either use one jump so you can go for air dash > air pressure (or go backwards) or use the standard ground ender for better positioning (6C > 236X > 214X > 22X)

Against kurushiiEX:

You could've used a better combo from the 3CC RC in the corner (3CC RC > 22D > 5D > 6CC > Stuff). Also don't burst while Ignis is hitting you during duo bios because she will still hit you as she is invulnerable to projectiles during that. In addition, during your blockstrings, you autopilot 5BB > 6A and players can get used to this really quickly. They could start poking you out, but I'm surprised that didn't happen and your opponents were getting hit (Minus Toan). Try to vary your blockstrings and mixup. Again after you knocked him down with 22A it may have been better to charge after him instead of charging as it's tricky buisness getting in already.

Against ElegantMid-Boss:

There are a lot of random hits going on. You caught her with a 3C FC, and you didn't do anything from that. When you got the 6A FC in the corner, you again could've used a better combo: 6A > 5CC > 6CC > 214D > IAD combo. This would've gotten you better damage. I also think you could really optimise your combos of a 22D with another stock, and for those combos, refer to the combo compilation.

Against Romeyurhomey:

The air grab at the beginning could be optimised with air throw > 6CC > 236C > 214A > Dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B. When you hit with 3CC, you should've opted with 2CC > 22D rather than an air combo because not only would it lead into better damage but you jumped too high to continue the combo. When you hit litchi with the 5A > combo, you wasted 3 stocks for that combo which didn't even deal good damage. You could've gone for the normal ender or the better combo which was: 5A > 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214B(w) > j.C > j.C > j.236D > j.214B > 6C > 236B > 214B > 22B. Avoid using j.D at Neutral, since Litchi could simply hit you out of the air with itsuu. In addition, I think you could not use 3CC so much, as majority of the time it costs you your health. If you go air to air with Litchi when she has the staff you will most likely lose, and your best bet is to use a ground game against her. Our 2C is really effective.

Against Kid Viper:

You played a little better in this match but again I think you're being a little wild with 3CC use and the j.D.

Overall:

• Learn more optimal combos. Refer to the combo compilation for more ideas.
  
• Be more resourceful with stock.
  
• Learn your hitconfirms and know how to followup.
  
• Try not to autopilot 5BB > 6A most of the time, or 5CC > unblockable in a blockstring. Vary your blockstrings.
  
• Try not to use j.D when you're so close to your opponent. Try and learn the best possible moments to charge. For example, against Jin, charging at neutral after a knockdown is fine, but for characters such as Lambda, Platinum and Relius, you would want to be in their face more because they are very problematic for you from mid - far range.
  

You have quite a few really good people to play against, and I have no doubts that you can become really good in a short amount of time.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Kiba

[shad0whiei]

Thanks alot Kiba! I definately need to work on combos. I'm still too used to CS2 stuff and trying out stuff that didnt work over too well ^^; Also need alot of work on spacing 3CC oki. I tend to start it late or too far in and miss the opportunity completely. Sadly that match with KV was the first of the night and I got progressively worse XD

I would love to play Toan more. The lambda I'm used to playing against is sadly predictable as hell and doesn't help with autopilot against someone who knows their character so well. Also all the rest are insanely fun to play ^^ Can't wait to play somemore with these guys.

Welp, I believe its time to look up stuff and hit the training hall~

[Kiba]

No probz. I hope it helps. The transition from CS2 - EX Tsubaki is quite a hurdle so it'll take a while. With your preserverance I believe you'll do just fine.

If you have any other comments or vids please do not hesitate to put them down.

[shad0whiei]

Have a few others from around the same time, but dont have the opportunity to get to them atm. I'll post them soon but, they wont be any better XD

I'll try to get some practice in soon and show some difference ^^

[FARO7D]

I hope this is the right thread to post this question.

When playing Tsubaki, I noticed sometimes, when you are like midscreen, after 22A, It will knock the character into the wall, and bounce them back to land pretty much right in front of your feet. Is there anything you can do with that? Any simple combo's you can continue? Nothing to complex please.

Sorry again if this is the wrong thread

[Kiba]

That happens when you score a counter hit with 22A. If that happens you can do this combo:

CH 22A > Dash 5C > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [1544, 16 heat gain]

You can't do much from a CH 22A anyway.

[Shruikon]

I miss IADs off of CH 22A

[FARO7D]

That happens when you score a counter hit with 22A. If that happens you can do this combo:

CH 22A > Dash 5C > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [1544, 16 heat gain]

You can't do much from a CH 22A anyway.

That is perfect. Thank you!