TD Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 *sigh...* ls there enough info to legitimately place the new characters?
Sneakman Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 No like seriously, imagine the Rachel we have now not able to move George with wind and even worse wind gain and damage. That's the Rachel from the 1st loketest. Yikes! *shiver* SHE HAD A PUMPKIN GAUGE SHE HAD WHAT?
Halcyone3 Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 i don't think parry loop would exist if parry had something like 214x for command.. for something with a 46 command to be not cancel-able into anything would be very stupid i wouldnt be too sure about that, noel can use jump install as d.5C->2147A, TK'ing the 214A since the jump cancellable frames of d.5C come sooner than the special cancellable 1s. 46 jump install, people can do it, but it is sorta unorthodox and quite a few ppl find it hard, but changing it to 214 motion could make her able to do it with a simple TK that even more ppl can do, so u would even have some scrubs being able to throw it out too from time to time. Not saying it would surely do that, but if noel can use a TK motion to jump install, making parry into a 214 motion COULD make it even easier and more accessible
Sophisticat Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 Haku vs. Haz is even to 5.5 Haku favor at best. Zidane already said why, so I hope this one's closed. Also, Haz really is good. Whether he's A or S or whatever is semantics. He's just solid with no bad matchups, and that's all we need to know. Although I'll have to confess that even as a Haku main, he doesn't at all feel like he's that high. I feel his weaknesses acutely, since he does seem to need a little bit of polishing in the next version of BB or that Dec. patch. :/
Spirit Juice Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 Given ASW's track record with loops in GG and BB, parry loop was most definitely not intentional. Just because parry takes advantage of the way jump cancelling works doesn't mean its intended to be used like it is now. 5k meterless combos and 7k with meter combos is pretty absurd from essentially just doing 5B5CC JCxN. A lot of things aren't meant to be the way they are (which is why characters get changed). While parry loop isn't absurd in its effectiveness, it's absurd in simplicity. In general, quality control at ASW has been pretty poor as of late (CT Nu and Hakumen not having loketests, DLC/console characters not getting loketests).
HiagoX Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 In general, quality control at ASW has been pretty poor as of late (CT Nu and Hakumen not having loketests, DLC/console characters not getting loketests). Platinum for top tier, yo.
Marionette Pwii Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 whoah damn I didn't know Carl was that high D:
Emerald Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 In regards to loops, I can't see the parry loop staying, nor can I see the Taunt Loop staying. It seems intentional that they allowed Tao to use her taunt as a tool, seeing as it has a hitbox, and it is used in her trial combos (admittedly this was based on players finding those combos first). However, in the challenge mode, there is no taunt loop. They clearly know about it, so its absence is curious and I believe that particular loop is unintentional or removable based on the same reasons that Spirit points out above, it is a simple repetition. However, Lambda's corner loop is involved in her Trials, #9 to be precise. So either that is intentional or they don't want to take it out. I know going by what is in, or what is not in, challenge mode is clearly not a supremely accurate way to go by what might not stay in. But I do believe the developers had to think decently about what they wanted the challenges to be. Further, they probably had some ideas on what they wanted to remove from the game at the point they made them. TLDR Version: Parry/Taunt loop probably will go, while TK Crescent Saber loop will. I do find it interesting that half the cast is above B tier in this list.
xSagez Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Why are Mu and Makoto still being neglected...? No matter how long they've been out there, you can still make a roughly accurate assessment as to where they would fit in on the list.
Firekid2 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 ^Not really. Nobody has really reached any kind of meta game with the new characters, and you never know when someone will discover a new tool, so its difficult to place them.
zeth07 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Putting aside all the Hazama talk going on in these tier list/match-up chart threads: Anyone care to explain what exactly made Ragna go from Top 3, to not even Top 6 in this particular list? Seems a bit odd considering nothing new has really come from the characters who got placed above him now to warrant such changes. And it's not like the match-ups themselves have seen any insightful changes to where all that difference between them dropped him that far. Any explanations?
Afrikaan Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Putting aside all the Hazama talk going on in these tier list/match-up chart threads: Anyone care to explain what exactly made Ragna go from Top 3, to not even Top 6 in this particular list? Seems a bit odd considering nothing new has really come from the characters who got placed above him now to warrant such changes. And it's not like the match-ups themselves have seen any insightful changes to where all that difference between them dropped him that far. Any explanations? Japan can block overheads. America can't. /discussion
Jourdal Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I'm sort of wondering that myself. I remember early CT had ragna considered a godly char, then people figured him and he dropped to where he was at CT's end, perhaps it's the same thing here?
Firekid2 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Japan can block overheads. America can't. /discussion To expand a bit, basically even though Rags has good pressure, if you can block correctly, he can't do shit because his pressure ends quicker than Bangs or Litchi's.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Japan can block overheads. America can't. /discussion yeah except the thing is no. alot of characters have worse mixup than him, and yet they're above him. discussion reopen.
Firekid2 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 yeah except the thing is no. alot of characters have worse mixup than him, and yet they're above him. discussion reopen. Not all characters utilize mix-up to get damage in. >_>
Zeromus_X Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 alot of characters have worse mixup than him, and yet they're above him. I dunno man, Ragna's mixup is pretty awful...nothing makes you feel worse than trying out every blockstring you can think of only for the opponent to be like "lol whatever I'm gonna block everything, good luck with that 6B". Alot of his stuff is still very unsafe too, Ragna's pressure ends very quickly if you're trying to be safe, he still needs meter to have a worthy mixup against someone who can block. If Ragna didn't have his meter gain and higher return from hits in this game, I doubt he'd be more than A or B tier again. I mean just compare it to Bang (fast overhead, dumb command grab setups), Hazama (invincible command grab, safer pressure than Ragna's), and Litchi (), it really doesn't seem that impressive to me.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I dunno man, Ragna's mixup is pretty awful...nothing makes you feel worse than trying out every blockstring you can think of only for the opponent to be like "lol whatever I'm gonna block everything, good luck with that 6B". Alot of his stuff is still very unsafe too, Ragna's pressure ends very quickly if you're trying to be safe, he still needs meter to have a worthy mixup against someone who can block. If Ragna didn't have his meter gain and higher return from hits in this game, I doubt he'd be more than A or B tier again. I mean just compare it to Bang (fast overhead, dumb command grab setups), Hazama (invincible command grab, safer pressure than Ragna's), and Litchi (), it really doesn't seem that impressive to me. Ragna has good mixup compared to.... most of the non Bang cast. I mean atleast he can use his overhead (I'm looking at you Jin's 6A which only gatlings from 2 attacks and is screwed on block). Compare his mixup to most of the mid and low tiers and something becomes very obvious, he has some, he can actually implement high/low mixup. the biggest issue I see in Ragna's mix up is that he doesn't have crossups... well and his tick throws suck, but this is BB tick throws are trash in general.
Lord Knight Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 yeah except the thing is no. alot of characters have worse mixup than him, and yet they're above him. discussion reopen. So Hazama (has 214da/dc which are the same speed, a command grab, can cross you up whenever he wants even when you're in the corner), Arakune (50/50's when cursed), Carl (anything including Nirvana, especially psuedo-unblockables), Hakumen (Instant overheads) all have bad mixup? The only maybe believable one is Tao, but she gets a 4way in the corner after taunt loop. These characters are all definitely better than Ragna.
Henaki Posted September 7, 2010 Author Posted September 7, 2010 JP tier lists > American tier lists. Henaki is also pretty biased lol. There is no way I would ever put Hazama at S tier, but A+ or A does sound reasonable. you can nitpick all you want, S- is pretty interchangeable with A+. the balance between S and B is fairly solid anyway. ragna loses his charm once you learn how to block, end of story.
felipebwk Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I was thinking about it too man ... Ragy has a very good damage (4k + / 5-6k with heat), a spectacular gain of heat (D. Belial edge), wonderful "oki" game (22c), one of the best "pressure counter" (Jesus dragon punch, inferno divider, 623C), divine pokes (5b, 2b, 6a, jc ..), good mix up (compared to non-bang characters) and pressure (over head (6b), rapid cancel, 2b, death spike .....) and Soul heater to compensate for its defense weak ... His only weakness and the absence of projectiles ... I know that not having a reliable projectile can be a nightmare against characters that have a very strong zoning, but the overwhelming power that Ragna has always seemed to offset this weakness ... I wonder, what is missing in it? improved mix up,beter 6b maybe, more pressure, a projectile (to get close).... OBS: sorry for my english...
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 If you actually understand how defense works in this game, Ragna is not that scary, unless he has meter. He remains strong because of high damage output and meter gain, combined with a semi-decent ability to control space and relative safety. The characters above him not only have more viable mixup options, but most of them control space better than he does and are generally much safer. I would say don't sleep on Ragna, but stop exaggerating how good he is. Also, people really need to broaden their horizons when it comes to knowing what a mixup is. A mixup is usually a 50/50, make other guy guess on SOMETHING. It's a lot broader than simply high/low or attack/throw. I'm looking at YOU, smooshman.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I'm looking at YOU, smooshman. I'm well aware of that, it's I hear mixup and think high/low, but yes in the sense of overall mixup, Ragna kinda sucks, no crossup, mediocre frame traps, etc. So he is relying on high/low, and his is very formulaic... still I'd trade Jin's mixups... his just suck, loses alot of pressure after any attempt at it, the only thing that makes his mixup viable is freeze resets....
farranpoison Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I'm well aware of that, it's I hear mixup and think high/low, but yes in the sense of overall mixup, Ragna kinda sucks, no crossup, mediocre frame traps, etc. So he is relying on high/low, and his is very formulaic... still I'd trade Jin's mixups... his just suck, loses alot of pressure after any attempt at it, the only thing that makes his mixup viable is freeze resets.... Just... stop talking, man. Please. I'll even beg.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Another thing, everyone keeps moaning and groaning about Ragna dropping, when he's basically still A tier (A- if you want to get really technical with it). Are people really surprised, or even upset by this? He's still in the top half of the cast as far as how good he is, he's solid as fuck. All the characters above him have something he doesn't, but he's still good. So why are people so adamant about insisting he's still top 3 or 4? Let it go.
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