ZONG_one Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Is that not what makes a move a good fatal counter(what this thread is about) opposed to a good move in general, with a fatal counter property(not what this thread is)? I don't know. I think Jayoku is still better than most FC's. You just can't get much more off of jayoku FC than normal jayoku. Where you can get a lot more off of Carl FC jB than normal jB. This being said, I think Jayoku is better still. That was my logic at least. This thread makes my head hurt.
Eshi Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 blade pretending he knows anything about makoto makes my head hurt
farranpoison Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 blade pretending he knows anything about makoto makes my head hurt Correction: Non-Makoto players thinking they know anything about Makoto makes my head hurt. :8/:
psycofang2 Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 real talk zidane is smart so he is ignored. i wish i was kidding. farran i need hazama mirrors pleez. also finally burst is the best FC in the game, interupts everyones combos, extreme untechable time, and you can do it once to...omg...TWO times a round! close this thread. p.s. Zong_One is free.
STenSatsu Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Think we can all agree Tsubaki's 6c is bast FC. WC v EC is great, haven't seen that since like XX! DL v Blade is also great and is like an infinite quote machine of greatness.
smooshman Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Correction: Non-[insert character] players thinking they know anything about [insert character] makes my head hurt. :8/: physics'd
Jourdal Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Think we can all agree Tsubaki's 6c is bast FC. WC v EC is great, haven't seen that since like XX! DL v Blade is also great and is like an infinite quote machine of greatness. Indeed, see sig. AI tsubaki uses her fatal to be godlike
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I don't know. I think Jayoku is still better than most FC's. You just can't get much more off of jayoku FC than normal jayoku. Where you can get a lot more off of Carl FC jB than normal jB. This being said, I think Jayoku is better still. That was my logic at least. This thread makes my head hurt. But the argument is that Jayoku's FC property makes no difference, so why is it the best FC move? It's like saying that Jayoku is the best move that just happens to have FC property. I think Carl j.B is a really good example of what people are talking about. The difference between normal hit and FC for j.B is like night and day, plus j.B has a high probability of getting a FC due to how it's used and what an excellent hitbox it has.
soujiro seta Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 But the argument is that Jayoku's FC property makes no difference, so why is it the best FC move? It's like saying that Jayoku is the best move that just happens to have FC property. I think Carl j.B is a really good example of what people are talking about. The difference between normal hit and FC for j.B is like night and day, plus j.B has a high probability of getting a FC due to how it's used and what an excellent hitbox it has. It's not necessarily about how much damage you can get form a fatal counter, but rather how often and easy it is to use. I would also agree with zong and spirit juice. Practicality and consistency are the overriding factors, imo, of how good a FC is. Carl's j.B is good, but people learn to eventually stop trying to just AA him everytime he jumps towards them, this isn't CT anymore where he was free in the air. You're going to have to catch someone doing something to get FC j.B, and 95% of the time when it lands you'll do his basic FC combo which nets 3.3K. The 5.3 - 5.9 k he can get with nirvana is too situational, hence the 5%. Once people learn to respect carl's j.B, they won't just toss out AAs at him, so actually hitting a FC j.B will not happen very often. This is not the same for hazama. It's not the fact that he doesn't get much off FC jayoku than normal jayoku, but rather how easy and consistently he get's FC Jayoku. Yes adding FC to it doesn't make a difference, and if it was considered just a normal "counter" then he wouldn't be in the discussion, but it's a FC, and that's what we're talking about. People consistenly land more FC jayokus than any other FC because all you simply need to do is IB. Carl has to catch you while attempting to do or doing something. Hazama just has to instant block. I'm assuming that's what zong is trying to say. Practicality, consistency, how much fear it strikes, etc override damage. Hazama takes the cake in all those departments. Let's assume tsubaki could 1-shot kill all characters with 5 stars after a FC 6C. It still wouldn't matter cause you'll never ever land a 6C FC, and even if you do you'll never have 5 stars. All the damage doesn't make a difference if it's too situational to happen.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 It's not the fact that he doesn't get much off FC jayoku than normal jayoku, but rather how easy and consistently he get's FC Jayoku. Yes adding FC to it doesn't make a difference, and if it was considered just a normal "counter" then he wouldn't be in the discussion, but it's a FC, and that's what we're talking about. People consistenly land more FC jayokus than any other FC because all you simply need to do is IB. Carl has to catch you while attempting to do or doing something. Hazama just has to instant block. I'm assuming that's what zong is trying to say. Practicality, consistency, how much fear it strikes, etc override damage. Hazama takes the cake in all those departments. Let's assume tsubaki could 1-shot kill all characters with 5 stars after a FC 6C. It still wouldn't matter cause you'll never ever land a 6C FC, and even if you do you'll never have 5 stars. All the damage doesn't make a difference if it's too situational to happen. I understand that POV, but the fact of the matter is that Jayoku could not be a FC and it'll still be just as good as it is now. This is the point that people keep skipping or ignoring for some reason. Like, we're trying to make a value judgement on a move based on its usage as a FC. Jayoku FCs a LOT, but the FC is almost meaningless, so who gives a shit? Like I said, best move that just happens to have FC property. That doesn't make it the best FC move, if you follow.
soujiro seta Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I understand that POV, but the fact of the matter is that Jayoku could not be a FC and it'll still be just as good as it is now. This is the point that people keep skipping or ignoring for some reason. Like, we're trying to make a value judgement on a move based on its usage as a FC. Jayoku FCs a LOT, but the FC is almost meaningless, so who gives a shit? Like I said, best move that just happens to have FC property. That doesn't make it the best FC move, if you follow. I know, that's why I said "adding FC to it doesn't make a difference and if it was just a normal "counter" he wouldn't be in the discussion", but somone at arcsys just decided that when Jayoku counter hits it should be a fatal. It's just because it has FC tacked on to it, and we're talking about FCs afterall, so we can't just leave him out of it. The FC property doesn't do much for it, but it's still a FC regardless. I know what you and zidane are saying, but we're talking about FCs and that includes jayoku, even though there isn't much of a difference from normal jayoku and fatal jayoku.
Marisa Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I wouldn't be surprised (or sad) if the balance patch changed Jayoku somehow so that you need the FC to combo off it. As things are now, Jayoku is a really good move with a pointless fatal attribute. I'll put my vote toward Carl j.B for best FC attribute, just because the options it opens up. Jayoku for best move that also FCs.
Zidane Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 In my mind, FCs come in two types: combos that do damage and combos that give advantage. The term "Fatal Counter" might actually be a misnomer in some cases. You wouldn't notice it otherwise in normal gameplay, but believe it or not FC Hotaru prorates like hell if Unlimited Hakumen uses it (even if he gets 8k on average from it, that's a pittance VS other Unlims, especially Unlim Tager who has 16k HP). The reason Hotaru is so good is because it does damage AND gives advantage. An FC that gives advantage would probably be an FC that's actually "easy" to use and less situational, like Makoto's D's, they're nice on block and take away a primer, link into eachother in the corner even if they don't hit from counter and just overall Makoto benefits from them (assuming you've gotten the timing down, I know lots of decent players who have so this is reasonable). Another FC that gives advantage are Arakune's curse dive cancel loop combos...they don't do nearly as much damage (3k maybe), but their sole purpose is to give him curse, which is where his real damage begins. I would think that FCs designed for "damage" in mind would be a lot harder to do than "advantage" FCs. Not only do you have to fish for them, but in some cases they are costly if blocked or you messed up the timing. To me, this is what Ragna's 2C is. While it is nice, it's hard as hell to land, and even if you do land it, sometimes you don't land it close enough where Ragna can actually use it for those 9k combos people drool over. And to be honest, Final Ultima's combos are probably the most exaggerated and HARDEST combos I've ever come across, and you'll never find any of that stuff practical in a match. It's just sheerly about the damage numbers in that case. I think in most matchup situations I've barely eked out 5k without meter (no BK) from his FC. I'm not a talentless hack, I punish where I see recovery frames, I look for opportunity, but I also know that in most situations you have to weigh when it's useful to use Blood Kain or not as well. That said, I've also seen plenty of "wiffed" Hotarus from good players, and I've punished what I saw accordingly. So Hotaru may be a good FC, but it doesn't have a good batting average from what I've seen so far. Hi Blade. We haven't had the pleasure to meet. I'm Zidane. You might've seen my previous works, such as "Hazama Is Top 3, You Stupid Scrubs" and "Did This Nigga Say FC Hotenjin Was Number 1?". Now, before I say anything else, I'd just like to let you know I'm not personally attacking you because well I don't know you. Contrary to what whoeverman said about me, I'm not really a dick. So, throwing that out there, let's talk about you. You're dumb. Not in life, no, but about fighting games. Particually BB since that is the game I noticed you post about the most. You seem to think all these people that argue with you are "trolling" you. Dustloop is not singling you out because you have a funny face. You are wrong a lot and say stupid shit. That's ok, I think we all did once. Except I hear you got banned for 6 months. Now I can't imagine how stupid the things you said were to get banned but just reading all your posts and all the sigs people have of you, I've got some inkling. You can't contribute In a conversation about game mechanics in gameplay and then fucking mention Unlimited characters. You can't talk about punishing certain shit the best you can when reading your glorious past posts you say shit like punishing with what you feel comfortable, not the best option. Lastly, because I won't go over all the fail, you mostly have no right to talk about fighting games AT ANY LEVEL when you say corner combos should be prorated. I mean, seriously guy? Fucking seriously? When half of dustloop is quoting your posts and loling, maybe you should lean back and think if the problem is you and not them. With this newfound knowledge I hope you acquire, maybe then you could put more thought into your everything, nt only becoming a better poster, but maybe a better player if you like that sorta thing. Just my two cents, -The Ziddu, #1 Most Dangerous Thing As Tagged By Spirit Jake And The Rest Of Free West Coast
CakeWasBannedd Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 You're dumb. Not in life, no, Incorrect
Dacidbro Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Damn, this thread would hurt my feelings if I wasn't too good at the game to care I body people all over the place, and when Zidane says he beasted on WC's best(which is bullshit Im a pound for pound better player and he knows it), all you faggots can say is "Lol" and "at 5A" Well I have news for you dumbasses aka zong1/fagjuice I am the best and I don't even push 5A. ITS 5B. And if you dumb faggots want to prove you're the best we can money match at NCI (Zong was already free at NCI, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED THERE) Real talk bitches, dacid out
Black Onslaught Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I have not seen anyone go that ham on someone since Rick James called out that random bitch on national television a few years back. Oh, and you too Dacidbro. yo daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamnn
Blade Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I'm starting to think shittalk should be banned in general....less mouth flapping more joystick wagging. And I'm sick of know-it-alls who talk shit as well. Worst combo there is. Leave your ego at the door, please. Just pretend you're a walking educational video for me and just don't say anything, just say what should be said, not what you want to say. Scrubs are more polite than you guys. Also I was never banned for six months, shit never happened. Fuck the rumor mill.
CakeWasBannedd Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 combo you can't do these blade the younger years
killionaire Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 I'm starting to think shittalk should be banned in general....less mouth flapping more joystick wagging. And I'm sick of know-it-alls who talk shit as well. Worst combo there is. Leave your ego at the door, please. Just pretend you're a walking educational video for me and just don't say anything, just say what should be said, not what you want to say. Scrubs are more polite than you guys. Also I was never banned for six months, shit never happened. Fuck the rumor mill. Look beyond your own mirror, please. Leave important gameplay debates to the real experts (Of the Free USA).. Of course, I could probably say the same of half the people in this site. Really, all I'm seeing is you valuing your own opinion more than it's really worth. As mentioned before, lots of people make that mistake. That is the only advice I need to give you. And we are getting off-track..
CakeWasBannedd Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 it's not my fault he's an obese stupid egotistical delusional weeaboo it's just my job to make him cry via the internet with mean words and jpgs
qwerty Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Damn, this thread would hurt my feelings if I wasn't too good at the game to care I body people all over the place, and when Zidane says he beasted on WC's best(which is bullshit Im a pound for pound better player and he knows it), all you faggots can say is "Lol" and "at 5A" Well I have news for you dumbasses aka zong1/fagjuice I am the best and I don't even push 5A. ITS 5B. And if you dumb faggots want to prove you're the best we can money match at NCI (Zong was already free at NCI, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED THERE) Real talk bitches, dacid out
CakeWasBannedd Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Damn, this thread would hurt my feelings if I wasn't too good at the game to care I body people all over the place, and when Zidane says he beasted on WC's best(which is bullshit Im a pound for pound better player and he knows it), all you faggots can say is "Lol" and "at 5A" Well I have news for you dumbasses aka zong1/fagjuice I am the best and I don't even push 5A. ITS 5B. And if you dumb faggots want to prove you're the best we can money match at NCI (Zong was already free at NCI, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED THERE) Real talk bitches, dacid out can we moneymatch at akicon instead
Dacidbro Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 dude cake you arent iven dont have things against you anyway
OrionXElite Posted September 26, 2010 Posted September 26, 2010 Damn, this thread would hurt my feelings if I wasn't too good at the game to care I body people all over the place, and when Zidane says he beasted on WC's best(which is bullshit Im a pound for pound better player and he knows it), all you faggots can say is "Lol" and "at 5A" Well I have news for you dumbasses aka zong1/fagjuice I am the best and I don't even push 5A. ITS 5B. And if you dumb faggots want to prove you're the best we can money match at NCI (Zong was already free at NCI, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED THERE) Real talk bitches, dacid out Damn...That Dacid rage coming to life...Man people must be fucking up bad if people are making him rage. You could shank the guy and he'd just compliment on your form :3 I'm only gonna say one thing I saw back a couple pages about good FCs having EASY combos. If thats the case...Tager's 2C is by far the best for ONE reason and one reason only: Anti Air FC2C>MTW>Terra Break>2B>2C>AC>Spark>2C>AC...7k damage. Stay free DL:cool:
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