[CS1-CSE] Mu-12 Critique and Self-Improvement Thread

[bakahyl]

Well there are more ways of doing it, but you have to jump a little higher before using j.2c after hitting characters like noel after hitting her with 2c. Delaying j.2c works (you do have to know the timing, so you might need some time in the training mode practicing it) and using a super jump instead of a normal jump also works for me.

edit: after some testing , there is another way that i could do it with no or very little delaying j.2c. You can do a forward super jump (2 9) and then a j.2c.

late edit: you only have to delay j,2c a little on 3 characters: noel, makoto and platinum.

Also forgot to mention that you have to delay 6b (SoD> 6a> slightly delay 6b) on almost half of the cast: carl, arakune, mu, lambda, litchi, tsubaki, bang and valkenheyn.

Edited October 18, 2011 by bakahyl

[Nemesis]

Also forgot to mention that you have to delay 6b (SoD> 6a> slightly delay 6b) on almost half of the cast: carl, arakune, mu, lambda, litchi, tsubaki, bang and valkenheyn.

fuck me that explains alot .... that move set has been pissing me off for awhile now its been like I would get it perfect one game and another id drop it horribly >_<

And to Lythium and Aile -- np i enjoy trying to help out my fellow players -- however I think I might've gotten alil carried away with you so sorry if you feel i was goin crazy there. I was on the verge of suggesting all my personal insane advices =P

I wouldn't mind tossing myself on the chopping block but I lack the appropriate devices

Edited October 21, 2011 by Nemesis

[cookiehours]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXfW29blicM&feature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJxbj3gECpA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkPHGSyEOM&feature

Derps everywhere but still.

[PhoenonX]

You should end your corner combos with 3C,63214C, Super instead of just 3C, Super. Does slightly more damage and guarantees that it hits.

[cookiehours]

You should end your corner combos with 3C,63214C, Super instead of just 3C, Super. Does slightly more damage and guarantees that it hits.

Okay, I'll take note of that. I usually take the easy way out because of online delays.

[Nemesis]

Im quite happy to see you very mobile and not allowing the jin player to take control over the flow of battle --- just try not to flail around too much and put yourself in a bad position

http://youtu.be/UJxbj3gECpA?t=52s --- Perfect opportunity to use habakiri instead of SoD, that way you can extend the combo

http://youtu.be/UJxbj3gECpA?t=1m20s ---> following up with 6A or 2C instead of 2B while in the corner so you dont miss the possible follow up

when you score a counter hit with 3C try not to push the opponent to the other side of the screen -- just pop a quickie 2B in there like we always try too

Work on your corner combos -- the ones in challenge can be quite good -- the 2B pick up and lack of SoD in the corner hurts your overall dmg and allows them to tech around your 2nd J.2C (i think). Basically looks like your doing the old CS1 mu combo

For astrals try bogging them down with lasers and 6B overhead -- or any 2-3 C combination (requires much faster inputs and no CH not needed ex : 5C/2C/3C->222D)

http://youtu.be/UJxbj3gECpA?t=5m50s ---> often times ppl will try to jump over your lasers when you apply them for suppression techniques -- they often jump straight up or backwards-- try anticipating this when you move in using your lasers for cover and take advantage of mu's vacuum grab. Watch and study your opponent during the game to see if they are "jumpers" if so then lol

Edited October 25, 2011 by Nemesis

[bakahyl]

Some things that i noticed

Just like nemesis said: missed combo potentials mid screen with habakiri, because you weren't paying attention where your steins were.

A whiffed 2d from jin is very punisable for him and it's even worse because he is in a crouching state, but you almost never took advantage of that.

The jin player(s) that you played jumped very predictably without faking out with iceswords or empty jumps, most of his/their jumps could have easily been anti-aired with 6a or 2c.

Try not use SoD as your blockstring ender all the time, that jin simply airdashed it away from it and escaped your pressure, at worst he could have punished you with a D ice car when you are recovering from a whiffed SoD. Try ending with 2c and 3c and use the jump cancel for something like an airdash throw ,mixups or if you suspect an anti air or dp backdash away to keep some distance.

I am not sure if it was lag or something else, but you seem to mistime your SoD in your combo's alot.

As for astrolling people, Mu is probably one of the easiest character that can combo with into her astral. The easiest is from her overhead 6b.

But any combo ending with 5c,2c or 3c can also work if you are pretty close, example dashing 2b, 5b, 5c , 222d.

If you are in the corner her astral can combo from any j.2c knockdown.

edit: most of her normal midscreen combo's can end with her astral if you only used one ground C move in the combo.

edt:darn i did not read nemesis post with astral when posting :/

edit: to nemesis

a 2b, 6a pickup in the corner instead of 6b is less optimal, but i have seen cookiehour's room on psn alot, so he probably likes to netplay. He might have done that because it's easier to do if there is some lag.

http://youtu.be/UJxbj3gECpA?t=1m20s ---> following up with 6A or 2C instead of 2B while in the corner so you dont miss the possible follow up

2c would not have worked here, 6a or j.b would have worked.

when you score a counter hit with 3C try not to push the opponent to the other side of the screen -- just pop a quickie 2B in there like we always try too

You can't always follow it up with 2b, because you don't know for sure if your 3c will counterhit, unless you used it as a punish on a move with a very long recovery like platinum's mami circular. 3c is normally quite unsafe, so i think SoD or jump cancelling is acceptable

Edited October 25, 2011 by bakahyl

[cookiehours]

Some things that i noticed

Just like nemesis said: missed combo potentials mid screen with habakiri, because you weren't paying attention where your steins were.

A whiffed 2d from jin is very punisable for him and it's even worse because he is in a crouching state, but you almost never took advantage of that.

The jin player(s) that you played jumped very predictably without faking out with iceswords or empty jumps, most of his/their jumps could have easily been anti-aired with 6a or 2c.

Try not use SoD as your blockstring ender all the time, that jin simply airdashed it away from it and escaped your pressure, at worst he could have punished you with a D ice car when you are recovering from a whiffed SoD. Try ending with 2c and 3c and use the jump cancel for something like an airdash throw ,mixups or if you suspect an anti air or dp backdash away to keep some distance.

I am not sure if it was lag or something else, but you seem to mistime your SoD in your combo's alot.

As for astrolling people, Mu is probably one of the easiest character that can combo with into her astral. The easiest is from her overhead 6b.

But any combo ending with 5c,2c or 3c can also work if you are pretty close, example dashing 2b, 5b, 5c , 222d.

If you are in the corner her astral can combo from any j.2c knockdown.

edit: most of her normal midscreen combo's can end with her astral if you only used one ground C move in the combo.

edt:darn i did not read nemesis post with astral when posting :/

edit: to nemesis

a 2b, 6a pickup in the corner instead of 6b is less optimal, but i have seen cookiehour's room on psn alot, so he probably likes to netplay. He might have done that because it's easier to do if there is some lag.

2c would not have worked here, 6a or j.b would have worked.

You can't always follow it up with 2b, because you don't know for sure if your 3c will counterhit, unless you used it as a punish on a move with a very long recovery like platinum's mami circular. 3c is normally quite unsafe, so i think SoD or jump cancelling is acceptable

I am still getting used to Mu to be honest. She still feels weird because I'm so used to Lambda.

I think there was some lag during those combos because I can hit those nearly all the time offline. One of the Jins I fought was learning him and the other doesn't even use Jin as his main.

And I'm actually a female.

Some combos I don't try to do online because I'm scared that some lag will screw me over in the end. That's why I try to stay simple.

But thanks for the advice. I will be more mindful of using steins.

[Cryingvoid]

You actually are supposed to outzone Jin with very few rushes, when a Jin player is experienced against Mu. Try exploring your advantage creating options, because since people get to know Mu's hitboxes and her reaches, they stop dying that easily.

[Lythium]

I'm not going to go into huge details, but in my opinion:

- work on stein placement and placing steins safely

- try not to rush in without cover

Against Jin, specifically, he has some pretty deceiving hitboxes, learn how far his normals extend. Also, his pressure is full of holes, so if you're feeling confident, it's pretty easy to DP out of it, giving you time to set something up.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lythium

[Cryingvoid]

Yeah, Jin is not a big deal to block also. His only overhead is dangerous when RC'ed into a combo only. His crossups and grimmicks can be tricky, but one must learn how to block them on reaction. Also, get a habit of IB'ing when connection is nice. Seed anxiety into your opponent with your solid blocking, and they'll stop blockstringing you themselves. Mu shouldn't be afraid of blocking. She's cool. And Lythium is cute.

[bakahyl]

You actually are supposed to outzone Jin with very few rushes, when a Jin player is experienced against Mu. Try exploring your advantage creating options, because since people get to know Mu's hitboxes and her reaches, they stop dying that easily.

You can outzone Jin sometimes, but Jin has a few very dangerious ways of getting in. One mistake with zoning and the momentum shifts to his favor.

His j.c is really dangerious for Mu, because it has pretty much the same horizontal reach as our j.c and his j.a stuff most of your air options when you are closer. Jin can also bait Mu's anti airs quite easily and going air to air against him is risky.

When i play against Jin, i don't think i can outzone a good Jin player for long. Habaya can be double jumped over, totsuka works but it costs your steins that you have set. Setting up steins when you are at mid range can get you hit or forces you to block his longer range attacks which will cancels out lasers from Mu's steins. At close range, you should not be setting steins at all.

Edit: Dp can be used to escape some pressure, but i have seen Jin's baited me on using it quite some time. Especially after any of his moves that can be jump cancelled, you need to be wary of him trying to bait you. Also Jin can be annoying if he is the throwing type. His 2a mashing can be used to make you throw reject miss him by mistiming or you can get hit by his airborn 6b if you attempt to throw him back .Jin can also bait you if you were trying for a dp to escape the throw or 6b guessing game by jump cancelling his 2a. :/

edit: when jin has 25% heat, he can hit you with his D ice car from almost anywhere at the screen and it's quite fast,incase you mess up with zoning. With 50% he can also use his ice wave distortion to bait a habaya at long range.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bakahyl

[Cryingvoid]

Of course you are not supposed to zone him only. But when you properly made him respect your space, he'll try to zone instead. This is the time when you should show him, that your tools beat his arrows and create some advantage for you. When Jin is aware of your spacing, you should safely zone to provoke his rushing. Then - simply mix some spacing attempts into your zoning and you'll be rewarded.

Best Jins (worst Jins for Mu) are calm and cool ones. And it is really fun to play zoning'n' guessing with them. e.g.: you make a Jin see your pattern of 6d SoD 6d Habakiri -setup, and make him IAD at you on wake up. Then you do 6D -> 4D (or 2D) -> Habakiri instead and watch him BURNNNN! Love Jins and Ragnas. They are fun against Mu. They are fun to block and CH too. Who is no fun - this is Lambda.

[bakahyl]

To be honest i like playing against Lambda more than Jin. Against Lambda (also hazama and hakumen), you need to use a completely different approach and tactics, while against Jin i can still play against him like against most other characters but with minor adjustments

[Cryingvoid]

Hazama is not that different from them in terms of approach in my opinion. You just watch precisely for his snakes' trajectory. All spacing tools work perfectly the same and zoning is not much limited when out of snakes' trajectory. The problem is experienced Lambdas. You can turn the table with a successful IAD, but if it fails... it is very hard to regain advantage out off block. Her normals are faster than yours too. And almost impossible to stein.

Hakumen is yes, lots of fun.

[bakahyl]

Experienced Hazama players can easily outzone you with his chains, he does not have to approach you yet. At the beginning he only needs to disrupt you from zoning, so he can have the momentum. Experienced Hazama players will try to bait your anti airs when swinging, so i don't think this matchup should be fought like most of the cast.

[Cryingvoid]

Well, yeah... no standing/disadvantageous zoning... But you can stein + totsuka him on snakes whiff. And you can bait/space his IADs with j.Cs/j.2Cs. But I agree, good Hazamas are very careful and baity themselves. Tricky, hard to read through... and quick. Very quick.

[C0R]

Mu can RUN. Marathon time that makes Hazama look like he has club foot. Extreme, productive mobility (not running for no reason in every direction) is the key to defeating many of Mu's matchups, such as Bang and Hazama. There's no reason to sit down and play their game, letting them take control of the match when you can weave in and out of target ranges, between tools and through zoning to capitalize on every mistake.

[cookiehours]

...I still have much to work on, huh?

[C0R]

My comment was aimed at the community as a whole.

[SolarMisae]

I agree. My matches vary greatly in terms of how well I do, and re-watching old match vids shows me that when I lose a lot of times it's just because I wasn't moving properly, or was impatient against characters I should have been more cautious around. Simply running away poorly against some characters gets me destroyed.

Mu needs to control the pace of a match. She needs to keep momentum in her favor, as it's hard for her to play defensive for very long.

[Aginor]

For once, I actually played on stream this NCI. I'll put this up here so you guys can learn from it. I'm a fraud and choked pretty hard with the last 6c (it was an accident lols).

http://www.twitch.tv/finestko/b/302284041 Skip to 7:20. =p

[SolarMisae]

http://www.twitch.tv/roku_b/b/302191188

I have two matches in that stream, one against BeaverDeity (Ragna) and Mystic d. I did okay against Beaver and had a rough time against Mystic. I believe my matches start around 22min in.

The monitor we were playing on also unfortunately had some godawful lag. >.o;

[pochp]

Aginor, you want input? Wouldn't be much to say but I could think of a thing or two.

Solar, y u no 6C 5D SoD 66D 214D? Much better than 6C 5D 6D 236D. When I feel greedy fancy I go for [D] setups. It's always good to know more setups though, because eventually they'll figure out how to counter them.

Do more RC combos. I know it's kind of hard to keep track of whether or not it's worth it depending on starter or meter when you're in a tournament situation, but what I do is just RC every time if I have the meter for it, since at least by keeping the combo going I'll build back some and get superior oki+corner carry in general.

Also, I don't like how you place steins up high after tao's air combo. I barely ever play this matchup (actually I think I only played like <10 games vs a tao in CS2, but some was against xdest's), but there's no point in placing many steins if you're gonna just block after (it gives your opponent time to think about what they're gonna do as well), and they'll also make it really hard to predict where command laser will go. What I do vs Rachel, which should be similar to tao since they both sometimes end their combos with you high in the air, is I fall a bit to see what's up keeping my airdash so I'm not necessarily forced to block, or just airdash right away if I'm in the corner so I'm not forced to block in the corner, then wait a bit and maybe use 236A if they're not in my face, but at an angle where they can't run under it, or steinxx236A, or j.C if their approach corresponds. If I have enough steins out, sometimes a 236D on the way down will just keep them afraid to start something.

Saw you do gold burst 6B in the corner, imagining it was supposed to be 66 crossunder 5B, but crossunder 5C is better. Although maybe because of the lag 5B being faster would be the safer choice...

You did crossunder 2B into 5C at some point, hope that was a missinput, not only is it really slow, point blank 5C is a bad idea overall, unless maybe it catches jump out attempts?

For the tao matchup more specifically, at some point you SoD'd into the corner but decided to stay back and set up. Against most of the cast this is OK, but against tao, she has no meterless reversal, and has a better neutral game than you (IMO), so you're better off running up and pressuring her immediately.

I may be wrong because I don't play the matchup a lot, but I prefer fighting tao either air to air, or ground to ground. (as opposed to air to ground or ground to air) She has so many ways of making your anti airs whiff, and jumping in on her is hard. 5C and 236A however beat a lot of her grounded options, and j.A,B,C, j.2C and airthrow are all good against tao in air to air if you know when they should be used. Close to the ground j.2C might be slow, but it covers a lot of space, so you want to let them know it's a tool you have, just don't abuse it because it's really easily punished.

[Aginor]

I don't need critique. It is more for people to watch and learn from it. Don't know where else to put it. Besides I am pretty sure people on these forums want to see how I play since there are like no videos of me playing. I am sure I would be curious how a person plays if they were giving me advice. :x I guess I should post it in the general discussion? No clue. :x