[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[psycofang2]

so from what im getting, 6A has questionable head invul time, changed trajectory on hit and counter hit, meaning theres a question of if it can even be comboed off of outside of the corner.

mid screen renka> 4c charge> gurren seems a bit skeptical since in the video the charge time was near 6C level 3. unless you mid charge it, chaining it to gurren still seems a bit unrealistic in its regard to hit stun.

kishuu is full projectile invul? when does the invul kick in exactly? i dont see it as activating on frame 1.

renka wallbouncing 5a combo seems viable. i really believe 5A is fast enough to catch them rom renka>hop>5a.

damage isnt the issue from my perspective, its the tools they are changing. especially 4C. if the hit box is still the same, and the actual hit stun even on ch then its simply asking to get hit out because it can trade in the enemies favor. or it can serve as a new mind game, release 4c early get free hit. etc.

the changes are pretty interesting, just i dont really think a charge is what 4c needed.

Edited August 14, 2011 by psycofang2

[IndigoNovember]

The 5a 6a 5a nerf isn't just about damage. 5a 5b has less corner push and (probably) less meter gain as well for combos where it doesn't fall on the cooldown period, both of which are less minuscule than it dealing than 7 less damage.

You're right, with 5a -> 6a -> 5a: you get about 1/3 of a hop's extra distance and about 1/8th more magatama. Got too eager =_= .

damage isnt the issue from my perspective, its the tools they are changing.

That's true, I guess I was just showing that for those of us who haven't gotten corner pressure completely down yet and end up playing in midscreen a lot, the changes when applied to midscreen aren't anything bad.

[zreb]

It's obviously not huge, but in serious play the little things add up. Making just a little bit of extra meter in a few spots can turn into a full magatama that could really save you later. Similar story with corner push.

[zdravkelja]

Hakumen

Buffs

- If Hakumen whiffs any special, cooldown does not apply

What does this mean?

[ryokoalways]

No meter gain nerf if whiff? Very situational buff, but better than nothing I guess.

Edited August 14, 2011 by ryokoalways

[MAdBater]

Hakumen

Buffs

- If Hakumen whiffs any special, cooldown does not apply

What does this mean?

Maybe you can block attack right after the whiff buy that seems cheap.

No meter gain nerf if whiff? Very situational buff, but better than nothing I guess.

How it is worded it does not sound like it deals with meter but not see the origin and only reading you guys second hand info.

[SansProtocol]

Maybe you can block attack right after the whiff buy that seems cheap.

How it is worded it does not sound like it deals with meter but not see the origin and only reading you guys second hand info.

It's like ryoko said. If you use a special that would use two or more magatama to execute and miss/whiff, you don't suffer the normal cool-down of 3 seconds (180F) that you normally would. It's a universal thing, as any character that spends 25% or more Heat at once suffers a cool-down period where they will gain 75% less Heat they would have normally. The difference with Hakumen is that his auto-gain stops in addition to the normal penalty.

So if it whiffs, no cool-down. If you hit/get blocked, it goes into effect. I think this will allow you to throw Hotaru out a little more liberally.

[psycofang2]

seems like they are trying to balance out the meter/ no meter gain issue so that its not over buffed but not over nerfed.

after about 5-6 + stars i throw out hotaru mid block string on obvious jump outs mashing or IB counter attack attempts, this can be an extremely helpful buff if used correctly, though all in all in serious play it wont be a shiny gold chip on the plate, but the suttle bronze one.

[SansProtocol]

Yeah, I see this being great news for Hotaru and Tsubaki as you can use them a little more loosely against jump-ins/approaches.

Otherwise, Kishuu is the best news I've heard in a while. However, if Enma doesn't have the projectile invul as well, you'll have to use it like Dudley's Ducking Upper. In the end, that's going to be worth the magatama.

[WolfCrimson]

-Gurren has repeat proration.

>WHAT THE FU---

[zreb]

i'd assume that's about gurren 5c looping in the corner, but the implications for midscreen combos is pretty upsetting. I wonder if the new renka will offset it at all--but then it has repeat proration too, so the options are pretty limited.

Edited August 16, 2011 by zreb

[WolfCrimson]

i'd assume that's about gurren 5c looping in the corner, but the implications for midscreen combos is pretty upsetting. I wonder if the new renka will offset it at all. Still lame though since renka is more expensive and causes cooldown, not to mention having pretty bald proration on the 2nd kick--assuming they didn't change it. I've seen no such notes that they might have.

ASW saw the last round in BBCS2 Grand Finals with Spark defeating LK's Litchi with gurren>5C xN in the corner, and decided it was too strong.

No actually this is how their process of balancing is, they do random shit at first and then by the end of trail-and-error stuff gets balanced. Let's hope this repeat proration doesn't stick.

[zreb]

5c gurren xN in the corner is kind of inefficient as hell, but it is powerful for certain things like wasting Kune's curse meter if you happen to catch him in the corner. I'm honestly not too surprised they'd be trying to get rid of it.

I'll freak more about Gurren repeats if it stays and his game isn't significantly improved otherwise by the time release rolls around, cause it's not like double gurrens were common in CS1 if you see what I'm getting at there.

[mAc Chaos]

If you want to waste all those stars just to wait out Arakune's curse meter, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

[psycofang2]

the way i see it from how they are appraoching this, i dont think they see it as wasting stars, they see it as possibly trapping the enemy, more damage than they wanted, too easy corner push?

i dont think they are thinking from a hakumens perspective but from a bit a skewed balance perspective. if something looks too strong without knowing the reasoning behind such things as well as the backlash or bad consequences of such actions, they will only see it as a 1 wayed advantage.

i was acually counting the days when theyd remove it, its wasting stars to us but to them its a really long repeating combo they see as too strong.

23 hits. lol.

[IndigoNovember]

I wonder when was the last time I saw repeated Gurrens used to finish someone off in a corner combo in recorded Japanese play. I feel like I saw it a lot in early CSII days. Could just be that the situation never arose recently.

Anyways, seems like those j.a -> j.b heavy carry combos will become even more important now that Gurren has repeat proration. They always felt better to use, rather than repeatedly Gurrening your way across the screen, even if the latter was more amusing.

Random Comparison Time:

(2) 3c -> 2b -> Gurren -> hop 2c -> Gurren -> j.2c -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3074) (return 1.8/overall -0.2)

from 75% screen length: carries opponent 0.75 hops away from corner, leaves you 3 hops away from opponent

(2) 3c -> 2b -> Gurren -> hop 5c -> Gurren -> hop 5a -> 6a -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (2978) (return 1.9/overall -0.1)

from 75% screen length: carries opponent 0.5 hops away from corner, leaves you 3 hops away from opponent

(2) 5c -> Enma -> j.2c -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3136) (return 1.4/overall -0.6)

from 75% screen length: carries opponent 2 hops away from corner, leaves you 3 hops away from opponent

(1) 3c -> 2b -> Gurren -> hop 5a -> 6a -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (2556) (return 1.5/overall +0.5)

from 75% screen length: carries opponent 1.5 hops away from corner, leaves you 3 hops away from opponent

(1) 3c -> 2b -> Gurren -> IAD j.a -> j.b -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (2747) (return 1.6/overall +0.6)

from 75% screen length: carries opponent 0.5 hops away from corner, leaves you 3 hops away from opponent

... Looking back at this comparison, was there ever a reason not to do j.a -> j.b heavy carry combos? Besides execution and Rachel (if I remember correctly Spark said it didn't work on Rachel) that is.

Edited August 18, 2011 by IndigoNovember

[Darkside937]

Head attribute invincible 6A being good depends on if it can be comboed from midscreen. If it can't, I don't see it being very useful since 5A is a decent AA as it is and counter can beat any actual jump-ins. Seems like the new 6A is for when you can't read if your opponent will attack or empty jump.

4C being chargable sounds completely useless if its hitbox remains the same (where his arm sticks out before the attack activates). Charging it seems like it would just make it easier for opponents to throw out a 5A/5B for a free counterhit or IAD over it for a free jump-in > whatever.

Kishuu be projectile invincible sounds nice, will definitely help the Lambda matchup and maybe vs. Arakune when cursed.

Repeat proration on Guren seems pointless. In most situations, the most you'll see Guren in a combo is twice. If a Haku player wants to use more Gurens, the amount of meter he'll be wasting is already a harsh enough penalty IMO.

The bit about not suffering cooldown when whiffing normals has me scratching my head. Yes, it's a situational buff, but it's pretty stupid that the cooldown even affect Hakumen anyways--why not just remove it from Haku entirely? All it does is effectively increase the cost of any 2 star+ move by ~0.5 stars and heaven forbid he gets a little extra meter after they've been continuously watering his autogain down ever since CT.

On a side note, I hope they buff the proration of his counters and make JD comboable. The risk/reward on them was never great, but their awful proration combined with the instant block changes have terribly skewed it to the point of them being borderline useless. It would also be nice if they would increase his damage and make him a power character again. Specials/supers costing meter was Haku's trade-off for his high firepower, but in CS2 it feels like you have to spend meter just to keep up with other opponents who get better damage and meter gain without actually spending any, defeating the purpose of his design.

[Arcknight]

I agree with everything in that giant black void above. Gurren repeats prorate into oblivion anyways as it is. I only ever saw that used to try and finish off an opponent. It was never a good use of meter. Everything else still seems good though.

I always wondered why I got randomly hit out of 4C and now I know why. -_-;

[Dorian]

So anyone have a sexy mugen combo I could play with? Couldn't find anything other than challenge 10 and I haven't tested to see if it can be done off a 6d.

D:

[MAdBater]

Combo Videos:

Random JP1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WMO2LhU-2s

Random JP2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5u6DDv_fyE

MrMiddleKick's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt07j27RiLQ

Corner Carry combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBOxQPCV0M

Power of Order: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-ZKuSmXyS0

Hakumen & Ragna Install Combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz4NRgsC8qk

Hakumen Basic BnB Combo Movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xxDkM6m4E

Hakumen Advanced Combo Movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijKwoNp8p-A

I not going rewatch these but many of these have mugen combos at the end of the videos. The hakumen ragna one is all about mugen combos.

This from the video thread.

Edited August 19, 2011 by MAdBater

[Dorian]

ty sir

[BladeOfJustice7]

This is from the new loketest;

Didn't see a thread for it yet so I'll start translations here~

3 day loctest, it'll be completely offline without using NESiCA.

Change list from pictures (noted as only a partial list and not everything)

System changes:

Burst - 25% heat gauge bonus on hit and guard from previous test removed.

- Compared to current versiion, both green and gold bursts have slightly reduced active and invincibility frames, and are now completely invulnerable to all non-burst attacks. Startup for green bursts have been slightly sped up.

Does this mean we can't counter bursts in extended?

[mAc Chaos]

It says they have reduced active and invincible frames, so maybe you still can.

[Jmyster]

Hakumen -

+Heat Cooldown after Specials - Changed from 180 frames to 90 frames

+jB - Air untechable time increased, can now j2A during the 2nd half of the move

+Kishuu - Becomes head and body projectile invulnerable after a certain amount of frames

+Yukikaze - Faster startup, easier to follow up on hit

The heat cooldown reduction sounds like a nice buff--meter will return faster after being used (well, when using more than one mag). Of course, it'd be nice if they would just give us back either the CT or CS flat rate, but it's better than nothing. Good to see Yukikaze becoming increasing more useful with each iteration, should it all stick.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Where did you get that additional info? Ryoko/Spark, what do you guys think of the decreased heat cool down?