[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BladeOfJustice7]

You can combo them. I just saw a vid where he did Tsubaki -> Hotaru -> IAD j.2c -> stuff.

Yes, it's been basically like that since CT lol, I'm referring to following up tsubaki with a normal into "stuff", I don't like hearing I need at least 5 stars to combo off tsubaki, yes it does immense damage, but being able to combo off your overheads makes them even more dangerous.

6b is comboable on CH.

Fair enough.

[Sechs]

I've yet to seen how the blockable part comes into play against Carl, Relius, Mu, Nu and Rachel, but I can agree more with that change than making 6D not instant.

Is there any supers that has 10+ start-up after superflash? What other uses can it have? ._.

Have we seen any use of 5D Emma? Should tell us about the proration of the drives?

I guess it will be 5D >　Emma >　jump J2A >　jump J2C >　Agito?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SwOfpCT4nc&feature=plcp

5D Enma looks pretty nice.

Sorry, I don't know how to do timestamps; occurs at 4:34 & 5:15.

EDIT: Thank you, Timestamps for Dummies!

Edited November 24, 2012 by Sechs

[Spark]

So it looks like Agito has a P1 of 70?

j.214A > j.B = 1027 (http://www.twitch.tv/central804/b/342583745 at ~1:36:13)

800(1st move DMG) + (.6(Combo rate) * .7(P1) * .92(P2) * 590(2nd move DMG) = 1027.976 DMG

Kind of a weak starter, but it seems to have body attribute(maybe?) with how often it was just beating anti-airs I guess it's not surprising.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Spark

[BladeOfJustice7]

So it looks like Agito has a P1 of 70?

j.214A > j.B = 1027 (http://www.twitch.tv/central804/b/342583745 at ~1:36:13)

800(1st move DMG) + (.6(Combo rate) * .7(P1) * .92(P2) * 590(2nd move DMG) = 1027.976 DMG

I'm bad at math so whatever you say I'll assume you're right :/

Kind of a weak starter, but it seems to have body attribute(maybe?) with how often it was just beating anti-airs I guess it's not surprising.

it looks like it honestly depends on the spacing/timing and the character. I doubt it'll beat Rachel's AA for instance which can be mashed and I'm guessing still hits behind her in CP, not to mention it has autoguard on it. In many cases where you see a iad>agito is because it crossed up and managed to get behind the AA of certain characters, causing a CH. But I saw a match where Ragna was able to 6a is.

So all in all I think it depends on the things I listed above, though crossing them up is usually the determinant in catching people with agito. it seems to be a strong tool in opening people up at least for now no? And this could mean less dependency on jb, and jb crossups.

[Warhound]

Got the CH 6B combo if anyone cares to take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoywmNge6Y&feature=relmfu#t=3m8s

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hakumen's 5a is still air unblockable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmobjKptUM&feature=relmfu @ 1:23

[Dream Maker]

Haven't played much so far but even without the mugen/OD trick he's very far from looking as bad as people thought he would be during the loketests. Despite the nerfed counters and the removal of the corner loops he still does very respectable damage overall, his meter gain looks faster than ever and he has the ability to get knockdowns from everywhere which is a huge advantage in itself.

About agito, it seems to have a weird invincibility property, I've seen go through a lot of things even when used from a dash.

[Isuna]

Why is it so advantegous for Hakumen to have knockdown everywhere?

Is he a rushdown character now, with the improved mix-up? o.o

[Dream Maker]

Because having an option to put your opponent in a situation where he has limited options and where you have the time and advantage to setup a meaty or whatever is better than leaving him escape and go back to a neutral situation that you're not even guaranteed to win?

I don't see how this is even debatable, no matter how good or bad his mixups are.

[WolfCrimson]

Haven't played much so far but even without the mugen/OD trick he's very far from looking as bad as people thought he would be during the loketests. Despite the nerfed counters and the removal of the corner loops he still does very respectable damage overall, his meter gain looks faster than ever and he has the ability to get knockdowns from everywhere which is a huge advantage in itself.

How is his corner damage? Does he get more damage in the corner than midscreen while spending the same amount of stars?

[Dream Maker]

I haven't played enough yet to answer that question. Although for now I see few ways to extend the damage in the corner besides hotaru and maybe the classic ~236B(1), 623A, 6C starter even though I've heard the bonus prorate on 236B's first hit isn't here anymore. Also despite jC having wallstick I haven't yet managed to followup anything after but I've only had very few occasions to try.

Anyway, not directly related but I think I saw on some vid a Haku player doing low j2A on an airbone opponent, landing and then following up with a ground move (maybe 2C) but I can't remember on which vid. If one of you see what I'm talking about could you link the vid please? This might be a good new way to create combos both midscreen and in the corner.

[xlolxlolx]

im thinking something like stuff>air hit 2c>j.214a>j.b/j.2c>stuff might be possible from the looks of it

[Skeletal Minion]

Ok, now that I've got a brief moment I can comment with a few initial impressions.

- 4C Feint is a great idea. It seems like a smart way to buff it without it winding up too strong. Coupled with the proration buff, I think 4C could be as useful as it was in CS1.

- Agito looks much better than I anticipated! The way Hakumens are using it to pressure is really cool, and its anti-anti-air capability sounds great. Really excited about this.

- Tsubaki is uncomboable? Welp, I guess that makes it the new Zantetsu now that 6B is comboable, faster, and free. Time to forget this move existed.

- Speaking of Zantetsu, DAT PRORATION. Very happy they finally realized how awful this move was and buffed it accordingly, looks like it will be good combo filler when you want to burn stars for damage.

- Crush Trigger looks buff too. Decent damage, huge range, and 100% P2 for only two stars? Yes please.

- j.2A pushback nerf seemed unforgivable at first, but I've seen a few instances in new vids where it causes a mid air launch under certain conditions. Might be cool, we'll have to wait and see.

- Autogain buff: YEEEEEEEESSSSS. Too bad his combos are so meter inefficient at the moment that it's a waste, lol. Surely this will be more impressive once combo optimization picks up though.

- Proration/damage buffs on normals: this seems to have happened with a lot of other characters as well. I like that SMP's implementation will vastly reduce overly drawn out snooze fest combos, but the game as a whole seems too low damage now. Notice how GGAC+R universally buffed HP by ~10% since they felt damage in AC was too high? In BBCP, I feel they should have done the opposite, lower all health by 1.5k or so (in addition to the current proration tweaks). It's wonderful that the game plays faster, but rounds still seem to take forever since low combo damage allows both players to make a ton of mistakes.

- The Shippu wave loop will most likely be a silly gimmick unless a practical way to set it up is uncovered. Right now it requires Shippu's wave to hit a near fullscreen standing opponent, which I don't see happening outside of FC lv3 6C.

- Counters = WTF. If the risk of eating a 5K CH was bad compared to a reward of a meager 2K before, they are now an utter abortion. Making them blockable is the worst thing they could have done and totally ruins their concept--that's like making command grabs techable or like taking away Inferno Divider's invincibility. They honestly needed to be buffed, but if they insisted on further nerfing them, they should have made them somewhat similar to how they were in CS2 lokes: instant startup, unblockable, a free mag, and a flat uncomboable damage output of ~2K, with removal of CH state for the second half of recovery frames. Discussing new strategies and uses for his counters are almost moot since those can all be answered by, "Oh, he might counter? Well, I'll just bait and block it."

I might comment more later, but for now my opinion of Hakumen is mixed. He's much improved from the lokes, but his nerfs and buffs seem quite polarized. It's as though ArcSys said, "You know how we took away so many strong things about Hakumen? Well, we're not giving them back, but here are a bunch of new toys to play with to make up for it."

How he'll fare overall is a coin toss at the moment. We'll see which side faces up in time.

[WolfCrimson]

Tsubaki is comboable anywhere with Hotaru, and only Hotaru.

My only major concern is the Hotaru and 6D nerf. Haku doesn't have the threat of hop hotaru to keep his opponents on their feet. And he can't react to highs and counter them anymore. You'd need to yomi that shit.

EDIT: This made me realize... Haku's become a more defense oriented character. At least whenever he doesn't have stars.

Edited November 25, 2012 by WolfCrimson

[Skeletal Minion]

^Oh yeah, I forgot Hotaru could be used to follow up Tsubaki. I still don't see how spending 5 stars to perform a slower overhead that can be 2A'd on its startup is going to outweigh 6B though since it's faster and free (meaning it also avoids meter cooldown).

At first I thought 6B would suffer lower damage output as a trade off, but I just saw this combo:

CH 6B > 5C > Zantetsu > 2C > jump cancel stuff. Three mags, 4K. Delicious.

The problem with 6D isn't that you now have to "yomi it." Haku already had to do that when choosing which high or low counters, and when to do it (e.g., "What's his next attack in his string going to be? Which counter would be appropriate?"). The 10F startup makes it impossible to use in many situations where it was strong before. Literally finding enough time to perform a 6D is the main issue.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Skeletal Minion

[WolfCrimson]

^Oh yeah, I forgot Hotaru could be used to follow up Tsubaki. I still don't see how spending 5 stars to perform a slower overhead that can be 2A'd on its startup is going to outweigh 6B though since it's faster and free (meaning it also avoids meter cooldown).

At first I thought 6B would suffer lower damage output as a trade off, but I just saw this combo:

CH 6B > 5C > Zantetsu > 2C > jump cancel stuff. Three mags, 4K. Delicious.

The problem with 6D isn't that you now have to "yomi it." Haku already had to do that when choosing which high or low counters, and when to do it (e.g., "What's his next attack in his string going to be? Which counter would be appropriate?"). The 10F startup makes it impossible to use in many situations where it was strong before. Literally finding enough time to perform a 6D is the main issue.

But you don't always get 6B CH. CH 6B mostly happens when the opponent mashes. Which good opponents won't do. I mean, it's good if you get a CH 6B, but it won't happen all the time. Maybe even rarely. Whereas Tsubaki>Hotaru is guaranteed to combo, and is a more "offensive" overhead, since you can do it off a hop when applying pressure and those really throw the opponent off. And I bet it would do more damage than 6B CH. Now, if only JP Hakus show us them optimized mag-efficient combos...

About 6D: I'm sure there are gonna be instances when it's possible to use.

[toanenadiz]

Good opponents mash. That's why frame traps exist.

[skd]

um

wat

[WolfCrimson]

Good opponents mash. That's why frame traps exist.

That is partially correct. Good opponents mash when they think it's safe to mash. Your job is to make them think it's not.

[Skeletal Minion]

I just don't see guaranteed combo ability being worth a 5 star investment. Maybe if I had a rack of meter stocked, but outside of that it just seems too expensive.

[WolfCrimson]

Well, with the increased meter gain, it's more probable that you are going to have a rack of meter stocked.

You know, this is getting annoying. Let's just agree to disagree.

[TheBossGiga]

5stars isnt much anymore. The man exhales mags now

[mAc Chaos]

That is partially correct. Good opponents mash when they think it's safe to mash. Your job is to make them think it's not.

Nope. Your job is to make them it's safe and then blow them up for it.

Yeah, starwise it looks like we're going to have to adjust to spending stars like water. No point in trying to grip onto every last star. Although I still like having spare stars so we'll see how much I will have after each combo.

[Sophisticat]

Haku got bling mag now. It's ok to spend a bit more for dmg/options.

[WolfCrimson]

Nope. Your job is to make them it's safe and then blow them up for it.

Your way is the Scumbag Sword way. My way is the Just Sword way.

For real though, the problem is that Hotaru is nerfed. How are you gonna blow them up?

Edited November 25, 2012 by WolfCrimson