psycofang2 Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 What do you mean? He's dumb because he can RTSD?. no not at all, blade clears up my confusing wall. You're misunderstanding what he's saying. People think hakumen is dumb because he can rtsd, but he's saying no, that doesn't make him dumb. You just have the choice now of being rush down oriented as opposed to his original CT design of strictly a defensive character. Now you have a choice as to hwo you wanna play hakumen. hence why he was incomplete, he couldn't handle certain matchups. Because they didn;t give him the necessary tools to deal with them. this is what i ment. also everyone has always been free to zantetsu, idky they didnt use it more in the other cs iterations its really good. tk tsubaki has become so main stream people expect hakumen to throw it out now. players werent conditioned to tangle with zantetsu, so no ones really expecting it too much right now.
itsme Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Zantetsu was too situational and unlike Renka, it doesn't offer the safety of a frame trap vs. mashers. Maybe people just watch the JP players and they deemed it bad due to the lack of usage by them despite it being one of the faster (and most obvious) grounded overheads in the game; though it's used seldom as a surprise overhead and it works out great. It's a pretty underrated special yeah but there honestly are better alternatives to Zantetsu unless if you wanted to combo midscreen from a grounded overhead, that or you're using it for some Zantetsu shenanigans. Also, one thing I like to do with it is step > Zantetsu on the ground approach vs. some match up since they expect a Kishuu or step Tsubaki and tries to throw a low/faster move to stuff Tsubaki but ends up outspaced and and out damage by Zantetsu's decent range.
Sophisticat Posted January 2, 2013 Author Posted January 2, 2013 Eb, my connection with Dioxide was good as I recall last we'd played. Bit of lag, but playable.
psycofang2 Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Zantetsu was too situational and unlike Renka, it doesn't offer the safety of a frame trap vs. mashers. Maybe people just watch the JP players and they deemed it bad due to the lack of usage by them despite it being one of the faster (and most obvious) grounded overheads in the game; though it's used seldom as a surprise overhead and it works out great. It's a pretty underrated special yeah but there honestly are better alternatives to Zantetsu unless if you wanted to combo midscreen from a grounded overhead, that or you're using it for some Zantetsu shenanigans. Also, one thing I like to do with it is step > Zantetsu on the ground approach vs. some match up since they expect a Kishuu or step Tsubaki and tries to throw a low/faster move to stuff Tsubaki but ends up outspaced and and out damage by Zantetsu's decent range. thats pretty much what i ment, its the fact that very often jp or not if someones suspecting tsubaki they start mashing. Its because tsubaki has become so commonly used that people anticipate it now. and then i throw out zantetsu and the get smashed. im seeing it alot in jp vids, either fuzzy 5A zantetsu or 2B zantetsu set ups. its not safe and definitely not fast but the element of surprise is whats been killing players vs hakumen. just like with his drive being nerfed hes still landing it.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 5C > Zantetsu only works on CH or crouching. Has that always been the case? Eb, my connection with Dioxide was good as I recall last we'd played. Bit of lag, but playable. Good to know, thanks
Yukikaze Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Has that always been the case? In CT you required CH 5C to combo Zan... pretty sure it was the case in CS1 aswell. In CS 5C got a hitbox nerf from CT (not sure how it is now) and I think CS1 is when Tsubaki got its a big buff most JP players seemed to favour Tsubaki over Zan for 3.
Spark Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 It's always been the case since the hitstun on 5C hasn't changed since CT and the start up for Zantetsu also hasn't changed since CT.
LegendaryRath Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Blade, I'm almost done with the stuff for the video thread. Well at least one freaking gigantic chunk of it. This stuff takes forever.
LegendaryRath Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Just sent a metric ton of Hakumen footage to the video thread, just for you Blade. Let me know if that's good or not.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Thanks Spark for the info. Thanks rath for the videos. When my bandwidth renews this week I'll hop on updating the thread.
psycofang2 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Why dos chibaken KEEP enmaing on block, epeatedly and the jc into j2C and REPEATEDLY gets AA'd by the same person, over and over again. im not sure about what hes trying to do but its not working.
itsme Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 It's a ghetto frame trap vs. characters like Hazama where they try to 5A you out of the air and it could net to Tsubaki before, it actually might be okay now too since you can cancel to Agito for an oki. I've seen the guy doing it since CSE, I really think it's more of a bad habit and he shouldn't do it as much if he's really still spamming it.
mAc Chaos Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 I've been doing since CT. :x Usually hits them out of their air grab attempt if you time it right.
psycofang2 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 i understand that its just the fact tha he gets AA'd almost. every. damn. time. it makes me wonder if he can break that habit. the only time i ever use that trap is vs jumpy people, that hazama practixally waited for him to do it.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Do you guys have a video representation of what you're referring to?
dioxideUniversa Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lYiaGGHKOdg#t=7m48s pretty sure they are talking about this, which to my knowledge does not work well in certain matchups for characters with decent AAs iirc he was doing it repeatedly vs. this one hazama and he was just getting 2C'd out of it every time. it didn't look like he timed it properly in that particular clip tho, since i know it's supposed to be rising j.2c Edited January 5, 2013 by dioxideUniversa
BladeOfJustice7 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Ohhhh that, it's pretty useless at high level especially against those used to fighting Hakumen. I tend to just air dash backwards if it doesn't hit because sometimes I just use it to break my opponent's offense, if they block it than I can return to neutral. I use that more against Tager though.
itsme Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) If it's Rocha's Hazama, he definitely can read Chibaken like a picture book when they play each other. Also, the neat thing about Enma on block is that you can do a jump cancel cancel special to do something like Enma > jcc Kishuu to throw off the opponent though I think it's pretty weak to 2A mashing/reaction grabs. I'm not sure how the ground special cancels works but I was testing out stuffs like Enma > jcc Renka (1) > Kishuu as a blockstring but noticed I can do Enma > Renka(1) > Kishuu without the jcc. Also, Enma > TK Tsubaki is dirty as hell too. Edited January 5, 2013 by itsme
itsme Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Also, it seems the frame data on Zanshin got up on an article on Arcadia. 828 ：名無しさん：2013/01/03(木) 11:32:34 ID:4uz2C7/o0 アルカディアに斬神の性能が少し載ってたけど6Dに笑ったｗ 当身が17～で硬直6Fとか使う方も使われる方もやりづらいわ（おまけに全体動作が5Dより短いし） 5Dは持続伸ばしても硬直は同じみたい あと当身をガードされた時の硬直差が5D6D-10F、2D-15Fと攻撃は貰わないけど不利すぎる 6D has a start up of 17f and 6f recovery (entire move animation? is shorter than 5D) 5D's recovery is the same whether you use the normal or the held version. Also, the frame advantages on a blocked drive is 5D, 6D at -10f and 2D at -15f; Hakumen is still invincible until neutral so we can block but the disadvantage is pretty bad.
psycofang2 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 thats 1 heavy drop. whatever. did they note the frame advantage on auto enma?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Damn, that's pretty bad. If Zashin gets blocked, you're pretty fucked.
psycofang2 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 nah all its saying is dont hit D unless its really going to work. i liked how it used to force people to be creative, now we'll see how we ca bust more ass open.
toanenadiz Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Damn, that's pretty bad. If Zashin gets blocked, you're pretty fucked. How so? Zashin still can't be punished so the worst you are going to deal with is a mix-up if it is blocked.
psycofang2 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 he looking at the -10 and -15 and not at the aftermatch from what im guessing. at best we get a fatal enma, at neutral favor we get a catch, at worst our shit gets block and now we have to IB 2a our way out like usual.
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