[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[toanenadiz]

I am going to disrespect Mac's random Hotaru so hard now

[itsme]

Are you sure you got it on the first frame? I was able to get 2A to win (on offense), but lose on IB.

It also seems distance / hitbox dependent too.

I tried to get the offenses 2A to come out as fast as possible but I think I got most of the moves to trade, etc. according to the frame data so I think I did it right, not entirely sure about the TK Hotaru though. And yeah, it could be distance/hitbox/which active you got to hit dependent since I only tested it at a pretty close range, maybe it could be +1~ if we get the very last few active of Hotaru blocked instead of the very first few actives I tested out. And also, people could always input their jabs too late and they could get hit out anyways, we always have our drives as well so even at +0 they don't have a guaranteed mash out.

Also, something interesting I noticed from a blocked Tsubaki Haku vs. Haku is that if you block it normally and the offense does 2A while the defense does 5B at the earliest, the 2A will whiff and the 5B will punish it on recovery. If the offense does 3C though, it might tag the defense's 5B during start up/active. IBing seems to cut the knockback though you lose anyways and barrier 5B puts both Hakus too far apart to touch each other, maybe double 3C might clash each other or w/e.

Edited February 7, 2013 by itsme

[mAc Chaos]

I am going to disrespect Mac's random Hotaru so hard now

welp

back to CT status

I tried to get the offenses 2A to come out as fast as possible but I think I got most of the moves to trade, etc. according to the frame data so I think I did it right, not entirely sure about the TK Hotaru though. And yeah, it could be distance/hitbox/which active you got to hit dependent since I only tested it at a pretty close range, maybe it could be +1~ if we get the very last few active of Hotaru blocked instead of the very first few actives I tested out. And also, people could always input their jabs too late and they could get hit out anyways, we always have our drives as well so even at +0 they don't have a guaranteed mash out.

Hmmm... I wonder, what if I plugged in my stick, and used the turbo feature to record the 2A coming out after Hotaru as fast as possible. So far I've tried to just do the 2A manually at the exact precise moment and I think I have, but it might be faster to use the turbo feature. Only question is if that would be less precise since it might not hit on the first frame either.

I tested out the first few frames of Hotaru too. I mean, if you did the very end of the attack you'd have to be farther away and that would make it harder to pressure in the first place.

Ugh, this is going to keep bugging me until I'm 100% sure. :P

Anyway, good job so far.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[itsme]

I think the next best step is to have someone test it out with you offline, I kind of just learned TK Hotaru is obviously not plus on block so I shouldn't try to mash 2A after that.

[toanenadiz]

I think you should still do it until your opponent realizes it isn't (or against characters with slow 2As).

[mAc Chaos]

What have we done. Science has gone too far.

I'm going to have to kill all of you. Nobody can learn what has transpired.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[abadlime]

A magician never reveals his secrets~

Not science, magic. Your trickery will end.

[itsme]

I assumed Hakumen was at an huge advantage after a blocked Hotaru/Tsubaki until today, I blame mAc for making me curious.

[C0R]

Hmmm... I wonder, what if I plugged in my stick, and used the turbo feature to record the 2A coming out after Hotaru as fast as possible. So far I've tried to just do the 2A manually at the exact precise moment and I think I have, but it might be faster to use the turbo feature. Only question is if that would be less precise since it might not hit on the first frame either.

No.

Just use advanced input.

[mAc Chaos]

Not science, magic. Your trickery will end.

I'll just keep mashing 2A after it and rely on lag to bail me out. With your back to the corner, you can't risk betting the match on hitting the perfect frame, can you? You can't!

I think it's hilarious if it really is +0 since everybody's been playing like it's +5 this whole time just because we didn't know better. I wonder if the JP players even know. We should just have the frame data say every Haku move is +5 on block and watch everybody play around them.

No.

Just use advanced input.

The thing is, how do you know when to push the button to use advanced input.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[C0R]

The thing is, how do you know when to push the button to use advanced input.

It's a level 3 move, it has 16 frames of blockstun, just hit 2a 11~16 frames after blocking Hotaru.

Though isn't this all a moot point? Can't he just jump cancel it?

[mAc Chaos]

If you're fighting someone like Mu or Tsubaki who has a 2C that can beat everything you do after jump cancel it's pretty much giving them a free combo. If landing and pressuring doesn't work either then all you can do pretty much is jump away, which is kind of lame if you are trying to pressure them in the corner. I was trying to figure out how much I could commit after landing to pressure.

In the end, +0~2 is no big problem, so it's still okay. Just wanted to know for sure.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[C0R]

Hotaru is a pretty expensive call for pressure alone, especially considering it doesn't have mixup properties, at best it's an air unblockable frametrap. Wouldn't late special cancel Renka to beat IB timings, especially as a 2b followup, be a more reliable option? They have the same cost meter wise, except Renka can be done without exposing yourself via dash, while Renka shares the air UB properties and leaves him +1 if they don't IB.

[mAc Chaos]

2B and Renka are great, but Hotaru still has its place. It doesn't need mixup properties, the point of it is to condition the opponent into blocking so you CAN do mixup, and let you get back in. After a blocked Renka you would still have to get back in either via hop or Kishuu so you'd be back to the same problem.

[itsme]

Well at least Agito is patching that part of Hotaru up next game with just one star. The only mixup we have after a blocked Hotaru right now is Tsubaki or a grab.

[psycofang2]

Hotaru is a pretty expensive call for pressure alone, especially considering it doesn't have mixup properties, at best it's an air unblockable frametrap. Wouldn't late special cancel Renka to beat IB timings, especially as a 2b followup, be a more reliable option? They have the same cost meter wise, except Renka can be done without exposing yourself via dash, while Renka shares the air UB properties and leaves him +1 if they don't IB.

the thing is despite the cost, it has its use, if you are fighting the kind of player that cant help but press buttons on wake up hotaru is a very safe option compared to renka. it also doesn thave as much push back compared to renka.

renka is useful in its own right, 6B/Tsubaki/renka hi low games leads to big damage.

but you also want to use something that doesnt have high push back, something not as easy Ib if you guess wrong, and something that will give back a much higher reward if it works.

meaties aside i use all of my tools: i use 2a and 2B not to just get it, but also to see what kind of person they are.

if they are mashy or jumpy they get the hotaru, if they sit still gotta start on some high lows.

it also forces a 50/50 on a block hotaru, will i renka or will i tsubaki.

guess right and you get to not die yet! guess wrong and you die sooner.

we all win.

[dioxideUniversa]

66 214b, land, 2147b

step up your game

[Sophisticat]

The real advantage to Hotaru is that it is jump-cancellable on block. It would be far too strong if it were + on block, imo...

[BlackYakuzu94]

>Still can't TK Hotaru properly in a match.

Fuck you guys, I don't need to anyway.

[mAc Chaos]

The other thing about Renka as far as safety goes is that it can actually be punished by IBing the first hit and DPing out. And if they block it, you are far away from them. It pushes you out, but you use Hotaru to get in.

66 214b, land, 2147b

step up your game

too strong

[psycofang2]

>Still can't TK Hotaru properly in a match.

Fuck you guys, I don't need to anyway.

just hit D you flawed godling.

[Isuna]

I love Yukikaze. Both Hakumens super attack and the anime character.

I also thought that Yukikaze anime was quite interesting.

Also has a nice meaning.

⇒ The reasons I made it my Nesica name

Yeah, I don't think that will work. Even if you could special cancel upon landing, Gurren is way too slow--Haku barely has time to link a 5A after j.D.

Obviously it was OD JD > land Gurren I was referring to.

And I just realized I had no idea what the start-up for Gurren was, and when I looked it up now... well, let's just say I was wrong. XD

Gonna say though, I gotta test if you can put Renka in, just for show.

I lol'd

[itsme]

I just realized Haku finally gets some FC confirms thanks to FC Enma aside from MORE BUNT LOOPS in CP. Well kinda.

[itsme]

Apparently, Tsubaki starter and wave spamming is the key to Mugen breaking 6k+ in CP. I wonder if we can get at least 7k+ with a Renka starter.

夢幻→OD→椿祈→5C→紅蓮→疾風(衝撃波)→残鉄(1)→鬼蹴→6C→疾風(衝撃波)

→鬼蹴→5C→鬼蹴→2C→JB→咢刀→JC→疾風(衝撃波)→5C→蓮華→疾風(衝撃波)→疾風

ダメ9044

(6Cを微タメ6Cにしたらダメ9082)

紅蓮後の疾風、6C後の疾風、JC後の疾風は最速だと次が繋がらない。

残鉄は最速で出すとスカります。

蓮華後の疾風は壁バウンド確認してから衝撃波を当てる。

Mugen > OD > Tsubaki > 5C > Guren > Shippu(w) > Zantetsu(1) > Kishuu > 6C > Shippu(w) > Kishuu > 5C > Kishuu > 2C > jB > Agito > jC > Shippu(w) > 5C > Renka(2) > Shippu (w) > Shippu

9044 damage

(slightly charging 6C increases damage to 9082)

The Shippu after Guren, 6C and jC will stop the combo midway if Shippu is done early.

Doing Zantetsu early will make it whiff.

The Shippu(w) after Renka should be done after confirming the Renka(2) wall bound.

[mAc Chaos]

If it's 6 or 7k do you even need to use Mugen. Why not just do an OD combo with 8 stars.