[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Mucky]

I'm not looking forward to fighting CP Haku. With overdrive all he needs is to land one good hit in the corner and he can take a round.

[mAc Chaos]

The matches I saw against Tager in CP looked like he was struggling more than in EX.

[BladeOfJustice7]

EX Haku is dumb, CP Haku is retarded.

Clearly I must be playing the game wrong since I can't autopilot a win against Rachel. Hakumen is far from dumb.

[Guymam]

Stop sucking. He dumb dawg.

[Sophisticat]

Clearly I must be playing the game wrong since I can't autopilot a win against Rachel. Hakumen is far from dumb.

Vitriolic reply from JF in 3... 2... 1...

I kid. :P

JF, I need to play your Rachel. I need matchup exp. for UMAD. ;_;

[Mucky]

The matches I saw against Tager in CP looked like he was struggling more than in EX.

I imagine CP Tager will lose a lot of his teeth as soon as the Japanese remember how to tech purple throws.

[kirbster]

@Blade : dumb doesn't mean you can autopilot to win, just that his tools and rewards are really fucking good.

@Soph : I know but it's pretty much impossible for me to get games in on Thursday now and Sunday is my only day off, and I need the rest from all the work :s

I miss BB though. I might show up super early Thursday with Nedel so come get some before I start my shift

[SansProtocol]

I personally like the CS2 version the best. Compared to the rest of the cast, he might have been weak but he just felt more balanced. His D counters all had their uses and his defensive archetype was acknowledged. Now, ASW is making the game much more offensive than before and thus, the character's changed for the worst in my opinion. He's technically the best I have ever seen in CP as they gave us Agito, practical unburstable high-damage combos, and high-damage potential off of D but he's a different character now. Maybe once I pick up the game when it hits consoles, I'll see some reasoning but the last two versions have been ridiculous.

[BlackYakuzu94]

EX Haku can be pretty dumb, even if you can't auto combo to death. His sword makes me crai ;A;

[mAc Chaos]

We don't really see the OD > OOPS I WON method play out in most match videos. So comparing how he is outside of that to EX he definitely seems weaker.

Still strong.

Just not EX strong.

[SansProtocol]

He's got Agito, simpler combos for the most part, better proration on all of his moves, better meter gain, Overdrive, 6B CH combo starter (which prorates well), quicker dash and a few other things that escape me at the moment. What changes to the character really affected him to make you think he's not better than his EX version?

[Skeletal Minion]

What goes through your mind when we do mirrors, Skeletal?

RIP AND TEAR

I would've asked on your wall but I'm not sure if you ever check it. :P Learning about mirrors is good for everyone anyway.

I don't ever check my wall anymore. Too annoying to check on Tapatalk. If someone needs to reach me for something, just PM on Dustloop or Tweet me.

[Skeletal Minion]

The 2B thing is weird, I'd have to see it again, don't remember what happened.

Regarding CP Haku, I'll tell you guys like I told Eshi a couple weeks back: he's overrated, calling it now. I expect him to slide down the tiers, probably not much (I'm guessing he'll settle at high-mid), but people thinking he'll be broken or even the very top? They're in full blown "jump to new game conclusions" mode.

Kishin is good. Agito is good. Autogain is buffed. Nearly EVERYTHING else got nerfed, pretty hard in some cases. If it weren't for the obviously-unintentional j.A > j.2C > 5A loops, I'd go as far as to say he'd be a one trick pony, relying on Kishin "all or nothing" style, kinda like Arakune's Curse if that was actually balanced.

I'll comment on the mirror later. At work right now

[BladeOfJustice7]

@Blade : dumb doesn't mean you can autopilot to win, just that his tools and rewards are really fucking good.

@Soph : I know but it's pretty much impossible for me to get games in on Thursday now and Sunday is my only day off, and I need the rest from all the work :s

I miss BB though. I might show up super early Thursday with Nedel so come get some before I start my shift

Good/Strong is different from dumb. marvel top-tiers are dumb. Dumb is when you can give zero fucks at almost all times. When you have really good rewards for the actions/decisions you take it just means your character is good or strong, or whatever synonymous word you'd like to use.

I personally like the CS2 version the best. Compared to the rest of the cast, he might have been weak but he just felt more balanced. His D counters all had their uses and his defensive archetype was acknowledged. Now, ASW is making the game much more offensive than before and thus, the character's changed for the worst in my opinion. He's technically the best I have ever seen in CP as they gave us Agito, practical unburstable high-damage combos, and high-damage potential off of D but he's a different character now. Maybe once I pick up the game when it hits consoles, I'll see some reasoning but the last two versions have been ridiculous.

I used to think the same way, then I started playing GG again. This changed my mind, it's probably the best direction they could've gone with him especially with the overarching direction they're going with the series.

If you take a look at Baiken in GG you'd understand what I'm taking about. After facing Baiken, who is also a defensive character in a high paced 2d fighter, and compare her AC version to CSEX Hakumen and CP Hakumen. You'd understand what I mean, and considering at this point in the game now he's not autopilot, but I'll admit easier to use, but he's not overtly autopilot either. He has a lot more offensive tools to take initiative in a matchup, even against tager for once, and players need to be on their toes more in order to exploit your adversaries defensively than ever before.

We don't really see the OD > OOPS I WON method play out in most match videos. So comparing how he is outside of that to EX he definitely seems weaker.

Still strong.

Just not EX strong.

How on earth is CSEX Hakumen stronger than CP Hakumen? o_O

He's got Agito, simpler combos for the most part, better proration on all of his moves, better meter gain, Overdrive, 6B CH combo starter (which prorates well), quicker dash and a few other things that escape me at the moment. What changes to the character really affected him to make you think he's not better than his EX version?

Depending on your reactionary skills he can get SIGNFICANTLY more damage off counters as well.

RIP AND TEAR

I don't ever check my wall anymore. Too annoying to check on Tapatalk. If someone needs to reach me for something, just PM on Dustloop or Tweet me.

I don't understand how people don't check their inboxes and what not. There's a bright notification when you enter dustloop lol.

EDIT: there's more points I could say about Baiken and Hakumen but I'll wait to see what everyone's thoughts are first.

[mAc Chaos]

All of his buffs just serve to even out the nerfs he got. It's not like they took everything he had in EX and just added on top of it. Pretty much what saved him from ending up in a crater was OD, the meter gain and that one loop. Remember how none of his old combo routes were working? There was the combo route with his Crush Trigger, but it wasn't very good.

Now let's look at EX Hakumen. He can get more damage for less stars, and has way more corner carry. He has corner specific combos that hit like a truck, whereas in CP he pretty much just does his midscreen combo. In EX he has reliable oki, in CP the best you have is Agito. In EX he has a lot more combo routes. In EX he still has 6D with frame 1 catch. In EX Hotaru and Tsubaki retain their old comboability. In CP Hotaru is easier to punish. I think he lost something with his 6A too, but I can't remember.

Granted, comboable 6B is very strong. I can see myself using that a lot, especially because of the changes to Tsubaki. Getting big damage off counters is good too, but they lost some grab range which has a bigger impact on matchups, in my opinion. It's more important to be able to stop certain moves and discourage their use, than to get more damage off a counter that you were going to land either way. On that note, there's also not being able to catch off projectiles.

And Agito is good, but people were getting bodied by it for a while just because it was new. Now you can see people blocking it and getting ready to AA Hakumen on the way down.

Basically, in a vacuum I think EX Hakumen is stronger, but their placement in their respective games has them about even.

I could be underestimating how strong OD is for his game, but I'll have to play and see when it finally comes out.

[Wander]

I think he lost something with his 6A too, but I can't remember.

isnt 6A AA not comboable midscreen anymore? unsure about corner though..

[Dreize]

From what I can tell (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points) Hakumen was compensated in quite a few different area's.

His changes were just one giant ploy. They nerfed Zantetsu's damage, yet they buffed it's proration. They nerfed his 6D's start-up, but gave it like a 40% proration buff. Nerf his throw damage by 200, but buff it by giving it stagger properties. Nerf hotaru's damage by 300, buff it's P1 by 20. Nerf mugen mode (which they had to do considering his new meter gain+OD+the he gains meter from countering projectiles) but allow it to be augmented by OD, etc.

I've never really liked this character, actually; I really don't like him at all. However, I really couldn't care less about his changes at this point in time (just wait until I get 6C > Shippu'd in OD for like 9k midscreen).

All of his buffs just serve to even out the nerfs he got.

Or, looking at it in another light. Perhaps they had buffed him initially (this is an S tier character that we are talking about buffing, of course) and they needed to nerf him afterwards in order to attempt to balance things out (so they essentially took an S tier, made him S++ tier, then nerfed him back to S tier).

Perhaps this was a part of Arcsys's master plan. Maybe they wanted to keep Hakumen as an S tier character without it looking too conspicuous. Because, somehow, this character managed to Zanshin the nerfbat. Ragna and Valkenhayn weren't able to do it, but Hakumen was.

Leaving the character as is would have be too revealing, they needed to make people believe that they were actually changing him (selling them a new product instead of a re-hashed Extend Hakumen) thus they took the role of "We're changing how he plays, we want a more offensive Hakumen, etc".

The whole nerfs/buffs list was only a facade. Arcsys wanted to keep him as S tier. This is how they did it.

(Disclaimer: this could all be completely wrong)

[Wander]

I think i read somewhere that the creator said hakumen was his oldest character design and his favorite.

[kirbster]

Hakumen players are pretty funny lol. It's like you don't want to admit how strong he is.

In CP where everyone's meter gain was nerfed, he is a fucking monster. Granted you gotta spend like 6 stars to get big combos but they hit like a motherfucker from almost any starter, but you get meter sooo fast that it's not even a problem. Plus the fact that his character design allows him to play a very solid defensive game means that he can get his meter that much more easily.

In EX he obviously isn't as dumb as, say, CS1 Litchi or CT Rachel, but his risk/reward is still better than the rest of the cast (huge damage off anything with 3 stars, great corner carry, amazing normals, etc. ), and he's allowed to do pretty much whatever the fuck he wants at all times, hence dumb in regards to that game.

[toanenadiz]

To be fair to Hakumen players, people who play other characters typically also don't like to admit how strong they are. It's like people don't want their character to be amazing.

[Sophisticat]

Hmm... not really. I'd say it's because we get to witness our character's weak and strong aspects more personally than the other guy who's at the receiving end of everything. It makes you more aware of deficiencies (though these could very well be attributed to the player). It is good to experiment with other characters to get an idea of weak/strong points, though. I also play Valkenhayn and admit his mixup is just broken, but he can be weak to pressure, too, and not everyone realizes this.

There is no doubt Hakumen is strong in EX. As mentioned earlier, the only matchup I hate is Tager. No one else makes me nervous. He's just really solid with few real weaknesses, which would, imo, be the recovery on his Cs and Ds. If you whiff either, you're getting CH'd. He's otherwise got options for every situation.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Sophisticat

[toanenadiz]

Hmm... not really. I'd say it's because we get to witness our character's weak and strong aspects more personally than the other guy who's at the receiving end of everything. It makes you more aware of deficiencies (though these could very well be attributed to the player).

That part makes sense. But the overall feeling I get when talking to other people and seeing what they write is that they tend to undervalue their character's strong points and over emphasize their weaknesses more often than not.

[Sophisticat]

That would be common to everyone, lol. It's a normal human trait to focus more on pain, loss, and negative emotions than what brings joy. Those are emotions that stay with you longer, so you'll see them emphasized whenever someone speaks about their experiences.

So whenever you get hit, you're going to be focusing more on that. And whenever you hit someone with j.C, you're giving him a traumatic experience, which I think is a really rad way of looking at Hakumen. :D

[Errol]

Perhaps this was a part of Arcsys's master plan. Maybe they wanted to keep Hakumen as an S tier character without it looking too conspicuous. Because, somehow, this character managed to Zanshin the nerfbat. Ragna and Valkenhayn weren't able to do it, but Hakumen was.

(Disclaimer: this could all be completely wrong)

Just saying, Valkenhyne is still S, and Ragna might not be S but he's as good as anyone who isn't S.

Of course Hakumen is still S.

[toanenadiz]

That would be common to everyone, lol. It's a normal human trait to focus more on pain, loss, and negative emotions than what brings joy. Those are emotions that stay with you longer, so you'll see them emphasized whenever someone speaks about their experiences.

So whenever you get hit, you're going to be focusing more on that. And whenever you hit someone with j.C, you're giving him a traumatic experience, which I think is a really rad way of looking at Hakumen. :D

Really? I tend to remember the awesome stuff in my life more than the bad stuff. Even in BB, I'll remember matches where I was amazing more than the one's where I messed up. After all, Lambda is one of those characters that is just made to be in awesome matches.