[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Skeletal Minion]

And said flaws don't always make a character not amazing. I'm not saying that they don't know their character. I'm saying that people tend to overstate character flaws more so than their strengths. Are you really trying to argue that people don't do that?

This has happened many a times in the Lambda/Nu forums. People will focus on her less than stellar defensive options rather than her amazing neutral, mix-up, oki and damage and make it seem like she isn't as awesome as she is. Sophisticat gave me a pretty good explanation about why people do that and I guess I am just weird that I don't like doing that.

Woah, that's not the argument I'm making or even participating in. I am well aware of Hakumen's strengths; I'm not trying to discredit them or say stuff like Kishin/Agito/etc isn't good, just that they aren't at good as people are hyping them up to be.

My post was cautioning people who think Hakumen is the best char in CP to not repeat the same mistake they've made every iteration of Blazblue by tremendously overrating him early on, only to realize later, "Oh wait, fighting him isn't so bad!"

Basically I'm trying to save them from the phenomenon scientists have termed "The Tager Assumption."

[psycofang2]

be.

My post was cautioning people who think Hakumen is the best char in CP to not repeat the same mistake they've made every iteration of Blazblue by tremendously overrating him early on, only to realize later, "Oh wait, fighting him isn't so bad!"

Basically I'm trying to save them from the phenomenon scientists have termed "The Tager Assumption."

you are asking for too much.

[Errol]

TBH there's very strong evidence for Tao being the strongest in CP, like Makoto in CS2. Hakumen is just gonna be in that same spot as NOL in CS2.

[mAc Chaos]

The real question is how does Skeletal Minion type out these big posts on his phone.

[psycofang2]

TBH there's very strong evidence for Tao being the strongest in CP, like Makoto in CS2. Hakumen is just gonna be in that same spot as NOL in CS2.

no hakumen is the strongest character ever. your opinion is incorrect sir fuury.

The real question is how does Skeletal Minion type out these big posts on his phone.

niggas got dem thumb skills.

or a stylus.

[Dreize]

I'm posting in this thread far too much for my own liking. Oh well.

In all seriousness only a hakumen main can understand what you are saying, now there will be people popping in saying they PLAY hakumen so they know x and y but they dont MAIN him, they just know the general idea of him. Not the true ins and outs, weaknesses and strengths.

I've never understood the basis of this claim. Proclaiming to be a Hakumen main automatically converts a person into a player that is aware of Hakumen's deep intricacies and such? Since when do mere titles have such a strong intellectual basis? Blindly conforming to stereotypes and traditional traits is the near equivalent of making blatant assumptions.

For example: Assuming that someone who is of Italian descent and prepares pasta is more knowledgeable at preparing pasta than a person of American descent who also prepares pasta based upon the notion that Italian's are stereo-typically associated with being proficient at preparing pasta.

If I decide to completely drop Valkenhayn tomorrow and pick up Hakumen as my new main (this is hypothetical and will never actually happen, ever.) do I suddenly become more knowledgeable about Hakumen than someone who has been subbing Hakumen for 2 years and is regularly learning/evolving with him? No, of course not; that's just nonsensical.

In short, what I'm trying to say is, immediately brushing someone off who could potentially be in possession of deep Hakumen knowledge based upon the fact that said person claims to be a Hakumen "sub" instead of a Hakumen "main" is just silly. Judging someone based upon character knowledge, length of character usage, etc is much more logical.

which is why id just ignore it completely.

Agreed. Though, I do ignore plenty of silly arguments that I see on forum's and such. At times, I just feel compelled to retort. Ah well.

*Cut down Errol's post relating to lists and such in order to minimize clutter*

Please forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption, but if this post's purpose was to debunk my previous post; it has failed on all accounts and thankfully all of my previous points still stand.

On a side note, that is not the "Average of top 10 players"; that is the sum of dan among the top 10 players. The average of the top 10 players would be the mean value, which in Valkenhayn's case; is 15.4. (feel free to completely ignore this remark if you were referring to the average sum of dan in relation to weekly analysis's). Also, there are clear inconsistencies within those lists (1st List: Ragna is above Carl, Litchi, and Azrael. Noel is also above Mu and Relius. 2nd List: Litchi and Azrael being below Noel, Ragna, Mu and arguably Carl. Relius is also below Tsubaki, Izayoi, Makoto, Rachel, etc). And, to add to that, for all we know the current tier lists may have been partially based off of these lists. Regardless, none of this means much; so debunking it is most likely just a waste of time.

You're initial argument was that Valkenhayn is undoubtedly an S tier character due to Japanese tournament results. I am not denying that Valkenhayn is a solid character in CP, I agree with that statement. However, concluding that he is an S tier character based off of Japanese tournament results is utterly absurd.

Once again, there is no proper basis for such a frivolous claim.

[Errol]

You're initial argument was that Valkenhayn is undoubtedly an S tier character due to Japanese tournament results. I am not denying that Valkenhayn is a solid character in CP, I agree with that statement. However, concluding that he is an S tier character based off of Japanese tournament results is utterly absurd.

Once again, there is no proper basis for such a frivolous claim.

Never said that. I think we're done here.

[psycofang2]

I'm posting in this thread far too much for my own liking. Oh well.

I've never understood the basis of this claim. Proclaiming to be a Hakumen main automatically converts a person into a player that is aware of Hakumen's deep intricacies and such? Since when do mere titles have such a strong intellectual basis? Blindly conforming to stereotypes and traditional traits is the near equivalent of making blatant assumptions.

For example: Assuming that someone who is of Italian descent and prepares pasta is more knowledgeable at preparing pasta than a person of American descent who also prepares pasta based upon the notion that Italian's are stereo-typically associated with being proficient at preparing pasta.

If I decide to completely drop Valkenhayn tomorrow and pick up Hakumen as my new main (this is hypothetical and will never actually happen, ever.) do I suddenly become more knowledgeable about Hakumen than someone who has been subbing Hakumen for 2 years and is regularly learning/evolving with him? No, of course not; that's just nonsensical.

In short, what I'm trying to say is, immediately brushing someone off who could potentially be in possession of deep Hakumen knowledge based upon the fact that said person claims to be a Hakumen "sub" instead of a Hakumen "main" is just silly. Judging someone based upon character knowledge, length of character usage, etc is much more logical.

you took it the wrong way and i did use the wrong wording in my rush out the door.

someone with a deep understanding of hakumen is appreciated but at the same time its come down to too many people simply claiming "I PLAY hakumen" (this could literally mean anything from actual SUB to someone they just pick every once in a while and win off stupid rewards) and some use this as an excuse to brush off any claims that too go against what they believe. the problem is i used the wrong wording but also using "i play X character so i know how stupid X is" has started to become more of an unchallengable excuse than a legitimate claim.

if they sub hakumen thats fine dandy if they pick up hakumen day 1 and become a god by day 2 thats fine too, but using the claim as a means to somehow void or nullify someone elses statements without a real reason, statistics, even sheer numbers or match outcomes, (ease of use woluld even be acceptable in my book woud) is just plain stupid/arrogant/ or an outright lie just to win.

its the more round about way of saying no matter what you play hakumen and are not allowed to discuss or even claim he has a weakness.

Edited March 22, 2013 by psycofang2

[Dreize]

Snip.

Thank you for clarifying. This makes much more sense, and I can now see where you are coming from.

Never said that. I think we're done here.

I probably should have paraphrased it better. This is what I was referring to:

Collapsed: Quotes:

What do you call a character that has one of the lowest populations, but has some of the best results overall and in tournaments? S.

Just saying, Valkenhyne is still S

I'm quite content with ending the debate right here, as I would never attempt to force anyone into participation. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Until next time, Hakumen board. (which essentially just means until I get OD 6C > Shippu'd in CP for like 9k midscreen and come here to post blatant rage ;P).

[kirbster]

you took it the wrong way and i did use the wrong wording in my rush out the door.

someone with a deep understanding of hakumen is appreciated but at the same time its come down to too many people simply claiming "I PLAY hakumen" (this could literally mean anything from actual SUB to someone they just pick every once in a while and win off stupid rewards) and some use this as an excuse to brush off any claims that too go against what they believe. the problem is i used the wrong wording but also using "i play X character so i know how stupid X is" has started to become more of an unchallengable excuse than a legitimate claim.

if they sub hakumen thats fine dandy if they pick up hakumen day 1 and become a god by day 2 thats fine too, but using the claim as a means to somehow void or nullify someone elses statements without a real reason, statistics, even sheer numbers or match outcomes, (ease of use woluld even be acceptable in my book woud) is just plain stupid/arrogant/ or an outright lie just to win.

its the more round about way of saying no matter what you play hakumen and are not allowed to discuss or even claim he has a weakness.

I take it you mean me lol. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, I don't mean to be as knowledgeable or as good as a real solid Hakumen player like BladeOfJustice7, or that what I say is worth more than you, but I like to think I have a deep enough understanding of the game for my opinion of this character to be reasonably valid.

Having gone through the hell that is CS1 Rachel, I tend to really focus more on what makes a character strong and effective at landing hits (and the reward those hits give you) instead of focusing on the little flaws here and there. Haku's offense and mixups have been greatly criticized here... But they're not what makes him strong, lol.

[psycofang2]

.

figured you'd show up, i didnt caption because i thought you'd think otherwise but i guess not.

no i dont mean you, im talking in general, during games on psn all around the forums not you personally.

i had hoped you would't have taken it that way. i wish you didn't.

im mostly speaking about pms, psn messages, chat discussions, general forums etc.

i don't put words in peoples mouths as doing so only heats a discussion the wrong way.

hope this clears that up.

[kirbster]

It just seemed like a funny coincidence haha, it's cool.

[psycofang2]

no you count as one of those few who, when you actually get down to discussing things, know what they are talking about.

[mAc Chaos]

its ok psyco we get the hint

kirb exposed for fraud

[kirbster]

Well I did get bodied by Blade 3-1 at our local meetup last night so I am a fraud

[psycofang2]

i lol'd

whats are some good falling jB rising JB set ups? or iad ja jB set ups?

so far i can do them both on knock down or off a blocked 2A/B 5B in the corner.

[BladeOfJustice7]

a real solid Hakumen player like BladeOfJustice7,

<3

It's times like this I wish that hakumen's corner combos didn't give me carpel tunnel. So I could play more.

I don't really bother to go for meterless mixup against Ragna, Rachel, Jin. Since they can slap the shit out of me at any time. I make use of kishuu more than anything else, I haven't seen any xbl players use jb for mixup really.

I'll do jb shit if I want to see if you'll mash me out of it. But, make mostly uses hotaru/air resets as pressure with occasional tsubaki's, I mostly use 6b and kishuu for my pressure. I don't know what everyone else does.

[psycofang2]

alot of my pressure utilizes things like 2A x 2 or 3>5C. kishuu in to continue, i mix around with stuff>5B>6B or 6A>2B, empty jump grab/2B> 2A/B>tsubaki, sometimes i hop hotaru to see if they are mashing, cross over tsubaki, hop hotaru jump cancel over them into jB cross up.

weird shit.

[mAc Chaos]

My pressure is pretty straightforward. At least I think so.

I love his meterless mixup though.

[itsme]

whats are some good falling jB rising JB set ups? or iad ja jB set ups?

so far i can do them both on knock down or off a blocked 2A/B 5B in the corner.

I feel like the former is only stable in the corner since people just roll away once they see Haku in the air or trying to do a weird setup in general midscreen, though I'm not sure if air dash jB can tag them if you can react to it or call it out in time. I sometimes do step 5B when I have 3 mags to bluff a Tsubaki and then go into rising jB > [falling ja > pressure]/[falling jB link > jc rising jB/2B mix up] though I usually reserve this to opponent's that respect my pressure or is being really defensive against me. Also, for continuing pressure with jA jB, I find myself doing it time to time against characters like Tao where I want to keep my pressure on by cutting most midscreen combos at 2C and then wait for them to tech start mashing jA and going for the continued pressure. I also mix this up with air reset stuff too so people try to stay on guard for me to pressure them.

Also, speaking of mixups, step forward > step back Tsubaki is pretty fun to do.

[mAc Chaos]

Once people expect hop Tsubaki I just troll them with hop Renka. I never usually get to go that far though either because Tsubaki works or they aren't the type to just sit there.

[psycofang2]

yeah hop tsubaki has become the new ID on wake up.

people expect it and once they see it they start mashing.

hop renka stabs faces.

so does 2A>tsubaki. rage inducing stuff.

[toanenadiz]

If they are reacting to the hop and mashing you out of it, wouldn't doing anything besides hop Hotaru get beaten by the mash?

[mAc Chaos]

Well, you have to make them scared of the hop by Hotaruing them out of mash a few times.

[psycofang2]

exactly.

its like those players with rachel clairvoyance.

its like the KNOW when you will hop hotaru then they just stop mashing, then you think "Oh hey its safe now yay :DDDD"

and then...NO ITS NOT MOTHER F***!!!!