[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[toanenadiz]

So which of you guys are on PSN and I haven't played before (or in a long time)?

[BlackYakuzu94]

I can throw Noel out of her j.4D, that's good to know.

[toanenadiz]

You can throw her out of 2D too.

[mAc Chaos]

Wait, you can?

[toanenadiz]

It isn't as easy as throwing her out of j4D but you can air throw Noel out of 2D. It feels pretty good to do it.

[Chaoschao222]

Wait, you can?

Yes, every one of her D normals is throwable.

[mAc Chaos]

I forgot... since her 2D is low invulnerable from frame 1, I just assumed that means she's in the air and can't be thrown. INTRIGUING

[BlackYakuzu94]

I felt so fucking powerful after doing it.

[toanenadiz]

I forgot... since her 2D is low invulnerable from frame 1, I just assumed that means she's in the air and can't be thrown. INTRIGUING

You can also air throw Jin out of his 6B and Tao out of her 6B as well. Second hit of gauntlet hades can be air throw if you IB the first part. I haven't been able to throw Hakumen out of Tsubaki yet or Plat out of her 6B though.

[mAc Chaos]

I air throwed Bang out of his backdash once.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

AC counters Bang's backdash after GF. It's amazing.

[Sophisticat]

So which of you guys are on PSN and I haven't played before (or in a long time)?

We need to get some matches in, Sir Toan. Sadly not this weekend, so it'll have to go to next week.

[Skeletal Minion]

I don't understand how people don't check their inboxes and what not. There's a bright notification when you enter dustloop lol.

...That I don't see because as I said, I browse Dustloop forums using the Tapatalk app. It can notify on PMs, but not wall posts.

[Skeletal Minion]

To be fair to Hakumen players, people who play other characters typically also don't like to admit how strong they are. It's like people don't want their character to be amazing.

Or maybe they're familiar with the character since they main them, if for no other reason they experience and recognize their flaws first hand? It's easy to think, "Man, Hakumen is strong" when he's kicking the shit out of you and you have to figure out how to deal with his strengths causing that situation. But, it's immediately apparent what flaws he has if you're being forcefully introduced to them by a player skilled at correctly fighting Hakumen.

The difference is having to figure something out on your own versus being forcefully taught it. Which one do you honestly think will be more readily understood?

From here on this post isn't directed at anyone in particular:

Speaking as a Hakumen main since day one, he indeed has flaws--but the act that he is played unconventionally compared to the rest of the cast doesn't mean they don't exist, it means you need to think outside the box created when you recognized the flaws of other chars. How about only blocking low if he's at less than three stars, only watching for 6B and throw gimmicks since that's all he's got at that point? How about mashing him out of hop whenever he has less than 2 stars, since there's NOTHING he can do about that without Hotaru? How can people get upset about counters, when other characters have moves that are 100% invincible on frame 1 to ALL attacks high/mid/low/throw, grant better reward, and are rapid-cancellable for safety? IB Inferno Divider is a-okay when all you can do to truly bait it is block and hope he doesn't have 50 or make it totally whiff (difficult/impossible depending on positioning), but IB counter, which has multiple ways to circumvent AND requires a correct high/low read for mediocre reward while in CH state the entire move--that's a deal breaker? (Note that I have no problem with counters or ID, just making a point about the hypocrisy here.)

There are so many times I've played people with Hakumen and thought, "Man, how can they be letting me get away with _____? How do they not realize it?" Then I realize it's because they'd rather spend their time to logging into DL and soapboxing about how strong he is instead of going into training mode, recording the "strong" stuff he's doing and challenging it, then laughing when they realize how flimsy it is. His defense is okay, but his offense has ALWAYS been holier than Swiss cheese. Now they tipped that scale in the other direction, where his offense is strong and defense isn't as good, but no one seems able to see that. I guess it's hard to see anything though when tears are clouding your vision.

tl;dr: mAc nailed CP Hakumen on the head. Get better.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Skeletal Minion

[psycofang2]

very informative but it'll fall on deaf ears (eyes).

im guilty of parading around hakumen as god status (cuz he is, his holyness). In all seriousness only a hakumen main can understand what you are saying, now there will be people popping in saying they PLAY hakumen so they know x and y but they dont MAIN him, they just know the general idea of him. Not the true ins and outs, weaknesses and strengths.

people either see damage, tourny rankings, or something insane pops up like that corner OD combo then its all hail mary from there. no one even mentions hazamas 10-11k combo in the corner.

its just conclusions and hype, its very nice and appreciated that you posted but honestly do you think anyone besides specific people and mains are actually going to listen?

[toanenadiz]

Or maybe they're familiar with the character since they main them, if for no other reason they experience and recognize their flaws first hand? It's easy to think, "Man, Hakumen is strong" when he's kicking the shit out of you and you have to figure out how to deal with his strengths causing that situation. But, it's immediately apparent what flaws he has if you're being forcefully introduced to them by a player skilled at correctly fighting Hakumen.

The difference is having to figure something out on your own versus being forcefully taught it. Which one do you honestly think will be more readily understood?

And said flaws don't always make a character not amazing. I'm not saying that they don't know their character. I'm saying that people tend to overstate character flaws more so than their strengths. Are you really trying to argue that people don't do that?

This has happened many a times in the Lambda/Nu forums. People will focus on her less than stellar defensive options rather than her amazing neutral, mix-up, oki and damage and make it seem like she isn't as awesome as she is. Sophisticat gave me a pretty good explanation about why people do that and I guess I am just weird that I don't like doing that.

Edited March 22, 2013 by toanenadiz

[psycofang2]

stuff

oh right while i was mentioning specific people, this guy ^ is one of those people that do that uncommon thing called listening and proper analysis.

and you arent weird, i know full well how power housed haku is, and i love it. my problem lies with me as a player.

[Sophisticat]

Hakumen doesn't particularly need strong offence in EX, but I am reminded of my matches last week with one of our top local players. At some point he decided to just stop attacking and let me RTSD. Try as I might, Haku's got no mixup so I couldn't even get a hit in except for the occasional throw he didn't react to quickly enough. Tsubaki and 6b are relatively easy to block as overheads if you see them coming. The former also costs 3 stars. Granted, there's always instant j.B, but that whiffs on some crouching hitboxes. Afterwards he said "do more mixups". I'm like "what mixup?". :8/: Hakumen only really shines when the other guy's being reckless, too predictable, or leaves a small gap in his offence. It's otherwise hard to get them to crack open their shell. In this, I think Psycho is correct that Haku could do with a command grab. But then people would whine.

But anyway, I don't think that's a weakness per se. Haku is still gdlk without having great offensive tools. If we're talking real weaknesses, then I mentioned the recovery on his C and D moves on whiff to be the real killers. If you don't space e'm properly or make a bad read, you're done for.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Sophisticat

[BladeOfJustice7]

^That's like saying give Ky a command grab, or Ragna a command grab (not referring to mada owari de wa nai zo). 6b breaks primers and in cp it's even stronger than ever before. So I don't see what the problem is. And Nolan, who are you referring to, Brice or Kaeru?

[psycofang2]

nah the command grab thing is just a long running ct joke i had going.

i mostly do it just to push peoples buttons, it works too often.

but you are right though hakumens mixup is very flimsy and 1 dimentional. He gets a good amount of his power from the opponents respect.

once they really figure him out it gets very hard, so you have to rely on poking or hitting them out of their pressure/approach attempts.

D is there but its more of a scare tactic than an actual combat tool. it WORKS mind you but its not something that can or should be used often since its poison to the user.

its something alot of players dont seem to understand, its universal for all characters but other characters dont spend resources doing the same thing, gatlins allow for faster sometimes safer frame traps as well.

some of his anti mash specials are seriously expensive for something they may not even be doing. so it comes done to serious fundamental play. we have an answer to almost anything the problem is timing your answer correctly under various situations that can range from sure fire to 50/50 chances.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Which is why with Hakumen you need to have good defense, and spacing. As the games have gone on, he can take more initiative to changing the pace of a matchup, but he still benefits from you making mistakes in the end. It's difficult to crack people open with good defense and don't mash.

[Errol]

So, like, Hakumen has an 18f overhead, a 19f overhead, and a 21f overhead. I understand there's a cost involved but it doesn't seem like the easiest stuff to block..

[psycofang2]

Which is why with Hakumen you need to have good defense, and spacing. As the games have gone on, he can take more initiative to changing the pace of a matchup, but he still benefits from you making mistakes in the end. It's difficult to crack people open with good defense and don't mash.

thats exactly the problem.

i had the honor of fighting a hakumen who fights almost exactly like me and it game me some deep insight on hakumens strengths and weaknesses.

wall builder type players (me for example) dont like taking absurd risks, especially against certain character types where they dont have to guess as accurately as we do.

vs characters whose projectiles curve, home in, auto target, auto correct without haveing to time it properly, characters whose pokes are not only longer but have much safer range and even to some extent crushes their hitbox so it makes it harder to challenge them.

his spacing is good at a specific minimum/maximum range, you need tog ain the life lead since him taking initiative is dangerous considering how decently easy it is to block or even mash out his pressure/overhead attempts.

fighting dreikoo, Soul, minoru, and 9ball and talking to them about it at the time i once thought hakumen was unbeatable as he was made out to be by other non mains until they made me sit down and think.

hakumen needs to be played intelligently, accuractely a little moreso than others, there are something he isnt suited to do automatically, then enemy needs to be conditioned into allow you to do it.

vs certain match ups this becomes difficult to near undoable considering how they play vs how you do both character and the player themself. even if the enemy doesnt make the right descision the usually dont suffer as hard, usually mind you. where as making a wrong guess as hakumen can not only make you look stupid but put you in a serious mess you may not be able to turn around, player skill withheld.

So, like, Hakumen has an 18f overhead, a 19f overhead, and a 21f overhead. I understand there's a cost involved but it doesn't seem like the easiest stuff to block..

thats a moot point. those are all within reaction speed and mashout speed.

its not the fact they the move itself is easy to block, they are "fast" because the attacks dont give themselves away like say Kys greed sever or ragnas guantlet hades.

its the set itself which gives away the attempt to do it. much like makoto, ragnas 6B attempt, bangs 6A,5c.

theres only so many things they can do to use those while attempting to maintain the advantage to allow themselves to do it.

hakumen has less of these without truly going on the random side, considering the fact he cant just microdash, gatlin into them meaning theres a distinctive pause off ground attempts.

falling JB rising JB fuzzy overhead set up requires you get them to block the falling jB. thats pretty hard vs certain characters and player.

Edited March 22, 2013 by psycofang2

[psycofang2]

right before i forget to mention:

theres nothing WRONG with this it just means its hard to hit people with a more prominent attack, aand less amount of times to do so.

vs defensive players who know hakumen this can get really tough and then you HAVE to work off of their self created mistakes, instead of making them create a mistake.

[Sophisticat]

^That's like saying give Ky a command grab, or Ragna a command grab (not referring to mada owari de wa nai zo). 6b breaks primers and in cp it's even stronger than ever before. So I don't see what the problem is. And Nolan, who are you referring to, Brice or Kaeru?

Pedro, actually.

So, like, Hakumen has an 18f overhead, a 19f overhead, and a 21f overhead. I understand there's a cost involved but it doesn't seem like the easiest stuff to block..

It sorta' is once you get used to it, or if the Haku's too obvious. In these cases, the setup is visible and reactable. The rewards aren't that good either outside of Tsubaki.

6b has like no reward at all in EX other than to destabilize your opponent, and it can be thrown and mashed out of, so that leaves instant j.B and Tsubaki. Instant j.B is only to confirm to Tsubaki, really, but it can lead to good dmg in the corner. Which leaves Tsubaki. It's worth at least 4.5k in the corner, and maybe 4k+ midscreen if you're able to do those combos. But you can mash out of it so you need to space it, and if blocked you lost 3s.

So the thing here is that you really want to land lows like 2b and 3c CH or mids/pokes like 2a and 5b which are gdlk for setting up corner carry and do good dmg. These are the pokes you want (and are more likely) to land as Haku. Low j.C CH or 4c are good as well, but these can be matchup specific and 4c needs to be used sparingly. J.B crossup works if the opponent is scared to mash as well and leads to more dmg.

His mixup shines more in the corner with instant j.B -> Tsubaki setups that can lead to 5k or [stuff] -> Hotaru -> 5c -> 2c -> etc. that can break 5k. It still sucks compared to many other characters, though.

No, you really get the most out of Haku's dmg when you're countering the other guy's stuff. The above demonstrates his normal's use as attempts to mount an offence. As defensive pokes, they would be used whenever you see a gap in the other's offence, assuming it's not a frame trap.