[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BladeOfJustice7]

Wise words.

I wish dustloop had a thumbs up feature like srk.

In the meantime, this'll have to suffice

[Darkside937]

I wish dustloop had a thumbs up feature like srk.

In the meantime, this'll have to suffice

Thanks! I like to analyze fighting game mechanics at an in-depth level (What was the developer's thought process behind this mechanic? How does it work on paper vs. realistically? Etc), but I rarely share my thoughts on them with people outside the local scene. It's nice to hear someone likes my opinions on them.

It would be really cool if they implemented the guard bar from Guilty Gear, but remixed it in typical "BB mechanics borrowed from GG" fashion: add a "type 1" meter. However, instead of breaking their guard outright once it's maxed, it puts the opponent in "Danger" mode for a short amount of time (between 5 and 10 seconds), after which their guard gauge resets to zero. This would instill the best benefit of type 3, as the onus would still be placed on the attacker to properly mix up the defender, but it wouldn't be straight up copy+pasting GG's guard bar system, as I feel that's a mechanic unique to GG, and should stay that way. In addition, this would be a "still advanced, but slightly easier to comprehend" mechanic in comparison to the way guard bar works, which seems to be a key objective for ArcSys regarding BB's design when compared to Guilty Gear anyways.

If they wanted to make something really unique, they could integrate the Libra into this, with adjustments of course. Make it possible for certain moves (Bugs for example) to add nothing to the Libra, and overhaul how much moves influence the libra period. Slow, crappy (read: Tager's) normals that have a "low chance" of being blocked (as in "used in strings or other situations where blocking is typically a good thing for your opponent to do, like on their wakeup"), should move the Libra MUCH more than they did in CT, while moves that have a "high chance" of being blocked (again, see the aforementioned) or things that are above average as pressuring tools should have less influence on the libra. Also, borrow another page from GG's book by causing the libra to reset to neutral more quickly, just as guard bar does once the defender is no longer under pressure, and much more quickly if they transition to being on the offensive.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Darkside937

[WolfCrimson]

That's an amazing idea. Could you write to ArcSys and tell them about this? I'd be interested to see this mechanic in BB.

Also: It's a shame that there's no thread for such mechanics discussion. Darkside, what do you think of Overdrives as they currently are? Would like to hear your thoughts about it.

[xlolxlolx]

uh dont forget that gg's guard bar also replaces proration, thats why theres so many moves that forces it

[Warhound]

- Step Agito can cross-up? I guess it's not a dive kick after all. Maybe it's an axe-kick like (Street Fighter) Makoto's?

Certainly hope it's not as slow as Makoto's. I pictured it like Hazama's j.214B. If it's got crossup potential...I dunno, that's going to be odd. I'm amazed we still don't quite know what it is.

- 6B has been cancellable into drives since CS1, along with most other A and B normals. Not sure what they mean here.

- Son of Tsubakicopter is cool, but Tsubaki > 2B doesn't work? Wat

Only thing I can think of is that it pushes them back just enough for 2B to not connect, but hop Tsubaki can. Otherwise? Yeah, that makes no sense.

- Kishuu losing projectile inv: just great (sarcasm). Although, with Murakumos possibly cut from the game, this might not be so bad... I'll miss kishuu'ing through bursts though, since it was practically directly injecting sodium into your opponent's bloodstream (though not nearly as much as countering their burst did. Really wish they'd bring that back :sad: ).

Not much needs to be said here. I agree, it's killing one of his view tools to get around zoners. As Hakumen, I don't want to just be sitting around on my big, white, metal ass all day cutting projectiles and saying "Nah nah you can't hit me!". What about ducking under dem chains, huh?

I hope you guys are right about most of this not sticking and is just a mad-scientist testing ground for new stuff. I haven't been skulking around the other forums quite as much, but do the changes look as drastic to everyone else? Haku has always been a corner rape guy, even back in CT when he had nothing the likes of our current j.C. Every change has been putting him farther away from the corner. And if they do keep him away from the corner, how are they going to work him? He's gonna need a damn lot more viable combos from mix-ups and cross-ups.

[Isuna]

Didnt CS and CS2 put emphasis on his corner play with Tsubaki sliding opponent to corner, 6C sliding them to corner, and repeatedly improve his corner carry?

Im not going to lie... I have hopes for resurrected J2A for today.

[dioxideUniversa]

6C and Tsubaki were rarely used midscreen for their corner carry aside from the high-execution midscreen Tsubaki combo. 6C was not able to be followed up outside the corner and did not give oki.

CS1 didn't have slide, come to think of it.

Edited August 9, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[mAc Chaos]

That Tsubaki midscreen combo isn't that high execution. I've been getting it consistently since CS2. I hit them with an overhead midscreen and get like 4-5k, and at the very least open them up for mixup next time since they're afraid of an overhead. Just getting the slide out of it was good too.

Although having them at your feet like in CT was good too. I tried that out the other day and it felt weird. I also found out you can combo off Tsubaki in the corner just like the other games in CT. I don't think anyone ever did that when the game was actually out.

Edited August 9, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Warhound]

Didnt CS and CS2 put emphasis on his corner play with Tsubaki sliding opponent to corner, 6C sliding them to corner, and repeatedly improve his corner carry?

Im not going to lie... I have hopes for resurrected J2A for today.

I'm sorry, I worded that terribly. Yeah CS and CS2 really put him in the corner, but even still, his j.2A (or in CT j.2C) pushed them to the corner, and it's definitely a spot he excelled in, rather than attacking from mid-screen, if I recall correctly. I meant that the changes we're seeing in CP is really changing his character quite a bit. j.2A no longer defies gravity, throw keeps them in place, Tsubaki no longer slides (not that I care), and so on.

CS1 didn't have slide, come to think of it.

CS1 Tsubaki was godly. We had an overhead to dread. CT Tsubaki could be comboed off of? I wonder why no one really tried it then. Figured there had to be some practical reason why no one bothered with it.

[mAc Chaos]

Very very strict timing and not that much you could do. It never occurred to me back then either.

Actually I just popped in CT now.

Off non-CH, you can do Tsubaki > 2B > Gurren > 6C and get 3.7k. :3

You can also get 3.6k off Hotaru > falling j.2C > 5C > Gurren > 6C.

I just did non-CH Tsubaki in the corner and got Tsubaki > 2C > sj.2C (old j.2C) > falling j.C > 2C > sj.2C x2 > IAD j.2C > falling j.C for 4.8k.

Now that I'm doing these I remember them being around. The timing was just tight. Especially on non CH. To do the one involving 2C you pretty much have to hit 2C at the first possible moment.

lol I still mess up that old Hotaru input. It keeps coming out as Renka. Guess my execution didn't improve after all. :P Just the input change saved me.

Edited August 10, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Warhound]

Very very strict timing and not that much you could do. It never occurred to me back then either.

Actually I just popped in CT now.

Off non-CH, you can do Tsubaki > 2B > Gurren > 6C and get 3.7k. :3

You can also get 3.6k off Hotaru > falling j.2C > 5C > Gurren > 6C.

I just did non-CH Tsubaki in the corner and got Tsubaki > 2C > sj.2C (old j.2C) > falling j.C > 2C > sj.2C x2 > IAD j.2C > falling j.C for 4.8k.

Now that I'm doing these I remember them being around. The timing was just tight. Especially on non CH. To do the one involving 2C you pretty much have to hit 2C at the first possible moment.

lol I still mess up that old Hotaru input. It keeps coming out as Renka. Guess my execution didn't improve after all. :P Just the input change saved me.

Yeah but what were your chances of getting a CH Tsubaki anyhow? I don't think it could even stuff low jabs >_<

What was weird is that in CT I could pull off Hotarus and Tsubakis like nobody's business, when CS rolled around I got worse at it....until they changed the input for Renka, thank god.

CT though huh? I remember the days when Gurren > 6C > Shippu actually DID something.

[Darkside937]

That's an amazing idea. Could you write to ArcSys and tell them about this? I'd be interested to see this mechanic in BB.

Also: It's a shame that there's no thread for such mechanics discussion. Darkside, what do you think of Overdrives as they currently are? Would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Overdrive sounds similar in premise to X-factor. You and your opponent each get a once (maybe twice?) a match boost that last for a limited time, with that duration lasting longer the closer you are to losing. Let me say first off that I'm NOT a fan of MvC3's X-factor. With all the advantages it gives you (damage boost, minimum prorated damage increased, negates chip damage, speed boost, health regen, and cancelling whatever you're currently doing INCLUDING BLOCKSTUN, POTENTIALLY MAKING EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME UNSAFE, which is pants-on-head retarded) it's just way, way too broken. When "knowing when it's best to use such-and-such system mechanic" becomes the predominate determining factor in deciding the outcome of a match, your game's meta is fucked, and I think I can safely say we've all seen tourney matches in that game where the clearly more skilled player loses because his opponent happened to pop X-factor at a good time before proceeding to steamroll the entire other team. That's not to say that I think the concept is a bad idea, just that in MvC3's case it was poorly implemented as it's too overpowered. I've said before that if they were to remove some, maybe three or four, of the benefits X-factor grants you, it would be a very solid mechanic. This seems to be the route ArcSys is going with Overdrive. It's still a once a match boost that gets better when you're closer to being defeated, but instead of transforming you into some SSSS-tier god, it merely makes you much better instead of broken.

The we'll-see-how-it-plays-out twist is the character specificity of the buffs. What OD does for each character as of the first loketest is known, but the exact extent has yet to be revealed as they're somewhat vague. For example:

"Carl: Synchro High Speed - Nirvana is strengthened."

"Strengthened" to what extent? We don't know the hard data, which is why my opinion of "the jury's out" regarding OD still stands. One thing that does worry me is if the character specific enhancements will be well-balanced amongst each other; honestly, some of them are looking kinda shit right now (Makoto/Rachel/Valk) while a few look stupid good (Hakumen/Hazama/Arakune).

tl;dr: I'm neutral on Overdrive as we really don't know enough to see how they'll play out in a match or what they'll even do exactly, but I certainly hope ArcSys exercises EXTREME caution when balancing it.

That Tsubaki midscreen combo isn't that high execution. I've been getting it consistently since CS2. I hit them with an overhead midscreen and get like 4-5k, and at the very least open them up for mixup next time since they're afraid of an overhead. Just getting the slide out of it was good too.

Although having them at your feet like in CT was good too. I tried that out the other day and it felt weird. I also found out you can combo off Tsubaki in the corner just like the other games in CT. I don't think anyone ever did that when the game was actually out.

Comboing off of Tsubaki slides was pretty shitty since it was so unstable for three reasons:

1. Character specificity of hitboxes while groundsliding (mainly the vertical height of their downed sprite directly affecting how easy it is to combo iad J2C)

2. Character specificity of "push" distance. Not sure if this is well known, as I don't think I've seen it documented on DL, but different characters' sprites are moved different distances after attacks/actions that push or knock them away. Ever notice how Tager is pushed farther away then everyone else when you 6D him, or how he slides further during a groundslide? That's what I'm referring to. Not sure how to exemplify this in CSE, but you can test this in CS1 by doing 6D > Lv3 6C launch > step > 5C > Enma > ... On some characters like Tager and a few others, you can't do 5C as they're "pushed" too far away by the initial 6D and instead have to do Step straight into Enma. It's different from having different hitboxes, and there are a handful of other situations where it applies (such as Tsubaki groundslides), but it's definitely there. IIRC, Tager, Ragna, Noel, and Jin tend to get "pushed" farther away, while certain chars like Valk/maybe Rachel aren't "pushed" as far.

3. Some combos ONLY work on normal hit, since CH makes them slide too far to connect iad J2C. There are a handful of crappy meter-inefficient alternatives (CH Tsubaki > Kishuu > Kishuu > Enma > ...), but whether you're iad'ing or Kishuu'ing, they're both neigh impossible to hitconfirm by verifying if it was Normal or CH since you have to do the next input nearly instantly. This is just stupid for the same reasons Hotaru's blowback distance in CS2/CSE was stupid: that shit is less stable than Chernobyl just before the meltdown.

As for combo'ing off Tsubaki in CT: wait, people didn't know you could do that? My BnB when landing Tsubaki midscreen in CT was Tsubaki > 2B > Gurren > 6C. If you don't even have a single star, you can do Tsubaki > 2C > J2C (currently J2A). The positioning afterwards was mediocre and the damage wasn't so hot, but if you wanted at least SOME damage... You could also get some pretty nice stuff with it in the corner, as mAc pointed out.

Honestly, I don't see why they just give us CS1 Tsubaki back entirely. It costs 37.5% meter, that's a fuckton considering it's our only useful overhead. Either that, or fix Zantetsu being a total waste of a move.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Darkside937

[mAc Chaos]

YESSSS you agree with my rage at Zantetsu. I forget I even have it.

Re, CT Tsubaki, I think we were all just too scrubby back then to notice it could combo. :P I was still more like "OH GOD I DID TSUBAKI, DID IT HIT, WHATS GOING ON" half the time. Also I just forgot since it's been a while, but after messing around there I remembered. I think I just didn't do it much because I wanted to be more efficient with stars. There were a lot of combos you could do back then that would cost a lot but not be as efficient as a simple 623AA combo.

I noticed the differing groundslides, but it was fine for me. I think it's based on their hitbox. The fatter they are the farther they have to go to be "centered" on the position they're supposed to be, I think. But for those characters I can still land the followup.

Having them land right next to you feels weird now.

[Isuna]

I'm interested, why do you hate Zantetsu?

Because it has such a obvious motion? Because it is hard to follow-up without magatamas? Something else?

What I personally hate the most with Zantetsu is its kanji. Everyone who knows a little Japanese and seen som shounen-anime would immedietly translate it to "Cleave Iron", with sounds pretty cool.

Kanji used for Zantetsu is "left over iron"... what? >_>

[SteelCoil]

Sometimes I purposely do Zantetsu early on an opponent's wake up so that the overhead part whiffs, and then they get hit by a surprise low. It's the best fake overhead gimmick ever.

Though it'd be nice if they gave the 2nd hit better proration.

[MAdBater]

you can some times get a random zantetsu. Because you use it almost never some people forget you have it.

[mAc Chaos]

I'm interested, why do you hate Zantetsu?

Because it has such a obvious motion? Because it is hard to follow-up without magatamas? Something else?

What I personally hate the most with Zantetsu is its kanji. Everyone who knows a little Japanese and seen som shounen-anime would immedietly translate it to "Cleave Iron", with sounds pretty cool.

Kanji used for Zantetsu is "left over iron"... what? >_>

Tsubaki is just better in every way. There's literally no reason to use it ever.

I still throw it out every now and then though if I want to keep someone in blockstun and think they might backdash the instant I go for the hop.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Jeeze so many posts, need to read through them later.

Anyways zantetsu is a major tool in the tager matchup, since he can't completely backdash out of it, due to it having 2 hits.

[mAc Chaos]

> using Zan near Tager

Just asking to get 720'd.

Never thought of that though.

Usually they just hit me out of it.

[Warhound]

I'm interested, why do you hate Zantetsu?

Because it has such a obvious motion? Because it is hard to follow-up without magatamas? Something else?

What I personally hate the most with Zantetsu is its kanji. Everyone who knows a little Japanese and seen som shounen-anime would immedietly translate it to "Cleave Iron", with sounds pretty cool.

Kanji used for Zantetsu is "left over iron"... what? >_>

IF you can manage to hit someone with the overhead, it's extremely easy to follow up on, just scoop em off the ground with 2C. But otherwise, it's way too slow, it's proration is terrible and like most of the guys here are saying, it's only useful when the opponent (much like the player) forgets its even a part of Hakumen's arsenal, or to stuff back dashes if you yomi like dat.

Tsubaki or rather CS1 Tsubaki was a godsend to Hakumen's mix-up game. Most important thing was that it was quick, led to some big damage and gave something for people on the defense to fear as well as simultaneously making Zantetsu entirely obsolete.

You know what I miss? 6D > full charge 6C...why in the hell did that die out so quick?

Edited August 10, 2012 by Warhound

[BladeOfJustice7]

> using Zan near Tager

Just asking to get 720'd.

Never thought of that though.

Usually they just hit me out of it.

if you space it right no, and preferably not when you're magnetized.

[SteelCoil]

> using Zan near Tager

Just asking to get 720'd.

Never thought of that though.

Usually they just hit me out of it.

Zantetsu is a half screen overhead.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Zantetsu is a half screen overhead.

I usually use it after a well spaced jc or 4c. It catches a lot of people off guard, since they just want to mash buttons.

Steelcoil also gets a

Btw the hakumen forums have NEVER been this active before.

[mAc Chaos]

I've seen it used after 4C in mirrors before, but I was able to block it easily since I didn't have to worry about anything at that range. Usually I have problems blocking overheads when there's a whole bunch of other stuff also going on, ie., they're right next to me and might go for a low or a throw.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Yea well you and walljumpman are the best mirror match hakumen players in north america most likely.