[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Darkside937]

"No star pressure"? I respect everyone here on the Haku forums, especially my fellow members of the old guard, but seriously: are you kidding?

The act of giving him a command grab would not be overpowered in itself; the move itself would have to be given overpowered properties (e.g., does 4k damage, invincible startup, Tager 360 range, or something similarly broken). So long as they don't do that, it would be a very plausible option instead of mucking with his high/low game by altering Tsubaki or whatever, since his pressure game in inherently poor by design. I don't have time at the moment, but I'll break it down and explain why next time I post.

[mAc Chaos]

Eh, I don't want him to have a command grab. His pressure game has always been about frame traps, throw setups and spacing people out (how I get most of my combos), not mixups and such.

There's already a ton of ways to get people with normal throw TRM stuff.

Plus, he's supposed to be at his weakest without stars anyway.

[BladeOfJustice7]

What mAc says is very true. I need new ways of setting up TRM's I realized.

[Sophisticat]

Unbelievers, the lot of you! :<

Eh, I'd show stuff if I could, but I think all you need is a bit of creativity and a willingness to take risks. Your biggest risk is being too predictable with your stuff, not that you don't have anything to pressure with.

Of course he's better with stars, but I really don't think having no stars means he's gimped.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't think he's gimped without stars either. Just supposed to be at his weakest.

[shinobispectre]

Question: How long is he without stars though? The meter charges up at a moderate pace aided especially with his counters giving him stars. Out of further curiosity what would his command grab be like?

[Isuna]

Each magatama is 1250 units. He gains 3units/F. So one magatama is 416F ~ 7 seconds.

He gains 4/F when less 35% health, 312F ~ 5 seconds.

So without doing anything it takes about 7 seconds. This really change though when he is attacking or is blocking.

Each blocked 2A gives him 21 units, each 2B gives 26 units...

[Spark]

In CP when doing 2A > late chain 5BC does Hakumen still late chain into 5B or does he chain into throw? Anyone who's been at the location test happen to test this?

[Warhound]

"No star pressure"? I respect everyone here on the Haku forums, especially my fellow members of the old guard, but seriously: are you kidding?

lol wow I'm sorry, I made a hell of a typo. We DON'T need a command grab. Tick throw is enough.

[Warhound]

*sigh* That typo literally ruined the entirety of my post...

Anyways, is there any idea when the next loketest is suppose to occur?

[Isuna]

Soon, maybe in August.

[BladeOfJustice7]

@Isuna

Like at the end of August, since we're already in August and all...

Was there anything good/new that was discovered with hakumen in the loketest, or will most hakumen players most likely gravitate to Azrael (like I suspect).

[shinobispectre]

What is Azrael like? I liked him the same reason I like Hakumen, they both look cool. Also did Hakumen get a launcher? In the loketest video posted around 0:52 he launches Tager and combos off of it as well.

[BladeOfJustice7]

What is Azrael like? I liked him the same reason I like Hakumen, they both look cool.

This was translated from a recent interview with Mori:

I: I can’t remember any other character who cares about chip that much. Moving on, what does Azrael have?

M: Azrael is a soldier that belongs to the same “Sector Seven” organization as Tager, who can implant weak points into the enemy with his Drive, The Terror. The idea is that he puts a curse on you for a short time. When a Drive attack connects, a weak point is put on you, and when it’s hit, your hit stun becomes much longer and attacks gain additional effects. Though his fighting style revolves around finding the way of applying the weak points to the opponent, his attack power is quite high, so you can still fight well even without using Drive. Since his movement is on the slower side, he’s pretty close to Hakumen in terms of gameplay.

Also did Hakumen get a launcher? In the loketest video posted around 0:52 he launches Tager and combos off of it as well.

NO that was his guard crush move. No one got anything like a dust attack in this game. If you don't know what a guard crush is, you can find it in the first page of the BB:CP loketest changes.

[Darkside937]

I finally have time to explain this a little more in-depth. Fucking work :blue:

First, I'd like to clarify some things:

I don't think it's VITALLY ESSENTIAL that Hakumen gets a command grab, I just think it would be nice. Yes, I think it would strengthen his pressure game (that's the point). No, I don't think it would be overpowered. Don't get me wrong; I'm not dreaming about giving him some super ridiculous OP move--we're not in a GameFAQs wishlist thread. However, if implemented properly, I think it would be a smart buff that would help flesh out his offense a bit better.

The following is a basic explanation of how Hakumen's pressure works. This is intended to cover pressure with the ultimate intent of going for damage. All of this is for CSE and previous iterations of BB and does NOT take the BBCP loketest changes into consideration. Also, new Hakumen players might want to check this too, as looking back on it, it kinda turned into a mini-tutorial That's also why this ended up being a huge wall of text, so sorry about that, lol.

First, let's examine how other characters apply pressure in general. Hakumen doesn't have true blockstrings like they do, instead having "pseudo-blockstrings." For other characters, putting your opponent in a blockstring means using a chain of gatlings and at some point going for mix up in order to ultimately damage your opponent. If pushed too far away or the opponent blocks the mixup successfully, blockstrings can usually be extended for a short time via things like RC/wind/dash-cancelled moves/etc. Eventually, this situation will either end in one of two ways:

1. The opponent succumbs to the aggressor and gets hit

2. The opponent successfully plays defense and blocks their way out, evades, reversals, or through some other means gets out of the defensive situation they're in

Hakumen's pressure doesn't exactly work the same way. The basic concepts of playing offense are similar (apply pressure and mix up with the goal of landing a hit/combo to damage the opponent), but how he performs his works differently. This is because there are some fundamental differences between his design and most other characters. These include but are not limited to: he has hops instead of a run, he has no true gatlings (instead having late gatlings. Technically he has a handful like being able to gatling into drives, but that's irrelevant for directly applying pressure), his specials can be cancelled into each other, etc...

So here's the rundown of a basic example. Obviously personal playstyle and your opponent's are huge factors in how to ultimately land a hit, so keep in mind that this is very generalized:

1. Get in close (obviously)

2. Throw out a "pseudo-blockstring" consisting of 2As/2Bs/whatever

3. Assuming you didn't land a hit, you'll get pushed out after just a few of the aforementioned pressure applying normals. You need to get back in to continue your pressure if you want to keep it going. Here, you have a few options.

3a. Hop (costs nothing) - This is a great choice and probably one of the better ones to use. It's free, it puts you airborne for many frames making you throw invincible, it puts you right back in their face, and it can be cancelled into Hotaru or Tsubaki (very important, but I'll come back to this in a moment).

3b. 6A (costs nothing) - Not as good as it used to be for pressure since it's even on normal block and it's still slow as molasses, but still useful if you need a meterless way to get closer with attack frames. You can frame trap with it, which is nice, but it doesn't get you as close as a hop and you'll be pushed back out a good bit when they block it. 6A can also be cancelled into from some normals like 2A or 5A, and while sometimes useful, it's not airtight, so it's best used somewhat sparingly.

3c. Kishuu (costs 1 star) - Gets you back in at the lightspeed, blows past anything that isn't foot attribute or a throw, can be cancelled into from pretty much anything, can go into Enma for frame trapping or to punish the opponent for feeling frisky (say, if Ragna throws a out a 5B once you're pushed back). Good stuff all around, but with the obvious downside of costing meter. You can't just Kishuu every time you need back in close, although it is an excellent option in many situations.

3d. Gurren. Useful for frame traps and gives you advantage, but if you're going to spend a star getting back in, just use Kishuu as it's superior in that aspect.

3e. Something else (Renka, Zantetsu, whatever. Costs 2+ stars) - Do not use these solely as pressure tools. They can obviously be used to go for a high or low during pressure as mixup tools, but they are simply too expensive to be used for the sole purpose of getting back in, which they're poor at anyways since the pushback from your opponent blocking either will nearly negate distance gained. Renka is good for frame trapping, but that's not exactly what I'm talking about here since frame traps in themselves aren't pressure; they're setups that can be utilized during pressure. But anyways...

4. At some point in time during any of the above, you go for damage by either mixing up with 2B, Renka, Tsubaki, Throw, TRM, or Zantetsu (lol), or by setting up a frame trap. You can also 6B, but that move isn't really for direct mixup as it's more of a conditioning tool designed to annoy your opponent into blocking high while chipping away their primers and health so you can sneak in a low and get real damage.

So, your most common general use options to keep Haku's lackluster pressure going are going to be hop, 6A, and kishuu. Looking at the information above, hop looks strong. In fact, it is the best of the three without question. This is because of dash-cancelled specials (remember how I said I'd come back to these?). Without dash-cancelled specials, hops would be completely terrible, no different than holding up a gigantic sign with "I'm going to make myself vulnerable to everything except throws for a while, feel free to punch me right in my stupid fucking face" written on it. However, opponents respect the shit out of hops (as I'm sure most of you are aware). This is because when Hakumen has two stars, he has access to one of most feared, most salt-inducing, and arguably best specials in the game: Hotaru. You want to mash me out of my hop? Go right ahead, but just know that this might be the time I decide to dash-cancel into Hotaru and blow your face off, Fatal Countering you and advancing you much further to the corner, picking up a beefy combo if you're already there. OR, you can keep blocking, giving me enough frame advantage to keep applying pressure. OR, you could try to block and punish Hotaru, but that's not in your best interest most of the time since I can just jump-barrier cancel to block, throw out a j.D, or cancel into Tsubaki to frame trap. The choice is yours: do you feel lucky, punk? WELL, DO YOU!?

Then there's Tsubaki. This is obviously for mixup, but has some neat perks when used in pressure in that it's also safe on block, blows up whiffed throws, and allows you to continue pressure. It's basically a mixup option that doesn't end your pressure if it doesn't work.

Let's review with an example:

Get close > 2A/2B > 2A/2B > hop to get back in, using DC Hotaru if they aren't respecting hops > 2A/2B... With mixup somewhere in there.

Now that we've covered the basic gist of how Hakumen applies pressure, we can keep that in consideration while moving on to the topic at hand: why I would like to see Haku given a command throw (again, I don't think it's absolutely necessary, just that it would be a nice addition without being OP).

Okay, so here's the big thing about Hakumen's pressure, or really just his offense in general: it costs meter. At some point of playing offense with Hakumen, you're going to spend meter, whether that's by using Kishuu to get in, performing Tsubaki as an overhead during mixup, hitconfirming that 2B into Renka to begin your combo, etc, etc. With zero stars, his pressure is worthless. Know why? Because even if you only use meterless options to pressure, say, by doing 2A > 6A > 2A > 2A > hop... or whatever, it doesn't mean dick because (with a handful of exceptions, like landing forward throw in the corner) when you do land a hit, your conversion options are precisely jack shit. Guess what you get off a 5C, Hakumen's best starter, when you don't have meter? NOTHING. Guess what you get off a commonly landed starter like 2A or 2B with no stars? NOTHING, aside from maybe doing a couple of late gatling into one or two more 2As or 2Bs. Hakumen is garbage without meter, and for good reason: his character is designed that way. Everyone knows how menacing he can be when he has 8 stars, but to balance that out, he's purposefully lackluster when he's at 0 or 1; if he was good when he didn't have stars too, he'd be broken. Hakumen should ideally wait until he has a least a few stars to start pressure, since you'll need some for mixup or frame traps or at the very least for getting damage once you hit them. Personally I wait until I have at least 2 or 3, with the ideal opportunity being at 4 or 5 (starting with anything more than that is just a bonus). If you haven't started pressure and have no stars, you should wait a bit/zone/play neutral/whatever until you get some. If you're amidst applying pressure and run out of stars, it's time to either end your offense attempt as it was unsuccessful or start stalling/bullshitting to get meter. If you BEGIN applying pressure while having no stars, you're betting that by the time you land a hit, you'll have enough built up to do something, which is a BIG gamble and rarely worth doing ever IMO.

That's why Hakumen's pressure is non-existant when he has no stars. Yes, you can do 2A/2B strings, BUT you don't have Hotaru to keep them from hitting your out of your hops. You don't have Tsubaki or lolZantetsu for highs, so your only overhead is little more than a non-threatening nuisance. You don't have Kishuu to stay in or breeze through mash attempts. And most importantly, any hits you land yield almost no reward at all. With no tangible reason to do so, why are you bothering to apply pressure? Sure, you can throw out a couple of jabs or something to stall and build a little meter, but if you need that, you're much better off zoning for a bit and annoying them with j.C/4C/whatever.

Now that we have established proper pressure with Hakumen requires meter, I can explain how I envision a command grab factoring into this. The thing about pressure in any fighting game is that it doesn't last forever, no matter how top tier Mr. S+ is (if it does, you should probably stop playing Power Rangers SNES, MUGEN, or whatever terribad game it is you're inflicting upon yourself). Fighting game developers know this, which is why fundamental features such as pushback exist as well as certain system mechanics like barrier block. If you can't mix them up and they just block, eventually you'll be too far away for your pressure to continue. What makes this different for Hakumen is how quickly this happens for him vs. the rest of the cast. While other character have decently long pressure strings with the option to burn 50% to keep it going, Haku has to have meter just to perform it. They can afford for their pressure to be applied somewhat more leisurely--Hakumen can't. When he's pressuring, more often than not he only gets one, maybe two shots max at landing that hit. You have to make shit happen when you're in there, because if you don't, you either won't have enough stars to make continuing pressure worthwhile, or you'll have to go for a suboptimal combo assuming you hit them. They blocked Ragna's 6B? Who cares, his pressure is Not Over Yet (heh). They blocked your Tsubaki? You just burned 37.5% meter, initiated a short cooldown where you gain meter at a vastly reduced rate, and reduced the amount of stars you have to spend on whatever combo you might get from your pressure attempt by three.

The point of all that being, Hakumen could benefit from a tool designed to help open them up during that short window he's allowed to when pressuring. The reason why throws/TRM tactics are so prevalent amongst Hakumen players is a result of his high/low mixup being fairly mediocre, and command grab would help make his pressure game slightly more threatening than "downback/barrier until you see him hop while waiting the short time it takes for him to spend his meter as that renders him harmless."

The I could see such a move being implemented is as follows:

- Slightly less range than forward throw

- Does no/little damage

- P1 85%

- 10 frame startup

- Invincible to throws frame 6-10

- Staggers

- Costs two stars

- Animation: Hakumen extends one arm with palm facing upwards, grabbing the opponent by the "shirt-collar" of their sprite, then closing his fist and retracting his arm to deliver a brutal headbutt to their face. Other possibilities include keeping the initial half of the animation the same, but instead kneeing their gut or striking swiftly downward with his elbow for the actual attack portion after drawing them in.

The concept is essentially to give him a tool that makes his pressure more fearful by granting him one more tool to crack their defense, making it easier to land a hit in the small timeframe he has the opportunity to, a timeframe that's much smaller in comparison to other characters, at the cost of 25% meter and the following combo doing less damage via proration.

[shinobispectre]

...karakusa? :D and the grab sounds nice! this was very interesting.

[SteelCoil]

It's not that I think Hakumen would be overpowering with that kind of thing, it's more for aesthetic reasons that I wouldn't like Hakumen to ever have a command grab.

Like, since CT, when you first look at the guy's moves, the things that stand out, other than the counters, are the big ass sword attacks.

Big, slow, with huge damage upon landing one.

Though that image has been dumbed down a bit with CS, the fact that moves like 5C, j.2C, and 6C (especially 6C) still exist are proof enough for me that Hakumen is intended to be all about his big ass sword attacks.

With this in mind, I would never expect a guy with these big ass sword attacks to have a command grab.

A command grab would make a lot more sense for someone who is more focused on hand-to-hand combat, like Bang or Tager.

A two-handed weapon user with emphasized, slow strikes does not seem like the kind of guy who would try to run up and grab someone by the collar for a headbutt.

If this was some other kind of character, I'd be all for a command grab that costs meter or whatever just to fix his almost non-existent pressure.

But because Hakumen is a pretty established character at this point, I'd have to disagree with any attempt at giving him a command grab, no matter how much it makes sense balance-wise.

Regardless, your analysis for Hakumen's pressure is really good.

Edited August 17, 2012 by SteelCoil

[Isuna]

Was there anything good/new that was discovered with hakumen in the loketest

Good? Not much...

New? A lot.

Might put everything I know here.

SYSTEM

• Overdrive increases magatama gain and makes Zanshin special cancelable.
  
• New Crush Trigger cost 2 magatama, and launches opponent straight up, chaining to 2C.
  
  NORMALS
  • 6B is throw cancelable. (?)
    
  • 2C floats lower.
    
  • Forward throw causes stagger instead of blowback, chains to 5C.
    
  • J2A doesn't reset gravity.
    
  • JC wall sticks.
    
  • J2C floats lower.
    
    DRIVE
    • 5D is delayable.
      
    • 6D is not instant, probably active from circa 10F.
      

    SPECIALS

    [*] New move Agito (J214A) supposedly crosses up from step, but is impossible to combo from even on counterhit and has low damage.[*] Kishuu lost projectile immunity. (?)

    [*] Hotaru floats Hakumen higher, launches opponent shorter and lost corner bounce.

    [*] Zantetsu damage nerfed to 2447. It is unknown if proration has changed to compensate.

    [*] Tsubaki doesn't slide, but doesn't chain to 2B.

    Supers

    [*] Mugen constantly drains at the 3x speed.

    [*] Shippuu during Mugen minimum damage nerfed.

    Probably missed something or got something wrong.

[Darkside937]

...karakusa? :D and the grab sounds nice! this was very interesting.

Pretty much now that you point it out, although that was completely unintentional, lol. I was aiming more for something like Hazama has, but tweaked a bit. And thanks!

It's not that I think Hakumen would be overpowering with that kind of thing, it's more for aesthetic reasons that I wouldn't like Hakumen to ever have a command grab.

Like, since CT, when you first look at the guy's moves, the things that stand out, other than the counters, are the big ass sword attacks.

Big, slow, with huge damage upon landing one.

Though that image has been dumbed down a bit with CS, the fact that moves like 5C, j.2C, and 6C (especially 6C) still exist are proof enough for me that Hakumen is intended to be all about his big ass sword attacks.

With this in mind, I would never expect a guy with these big ass sword attacks to have a command grab.

A command grab would make a lot more sense for someone who is more focused on hand-to-hand combat, like Bang or Tager.

A two-handed weapon user with emphasized, slow strikes does not seem like the kind of guy who would try to run up and grab someone by the collar for a headbutt.

If this was some other kind of character, I'd be all for a command grab that costs meter or whatever just to fix his almost non-existent pressure.

But because Hakumen is a pretty established character at this point, I'd have to disagree with any attempt at giving him a command grab, no matter how much it makes sense balance-wise.

Regardless, your analysis for Hakumen's pressure is really good.

Yeah, I can see how some Haku-mains might feel that way in regards to the aesthetics. In CS2, the way they turned Hakumen, THE power character of Blazblue, into a non-power character was one of the main reasons I played that iteration for such a small time in comparison to other BBs. I really miss the slow, heavy-hitting defensive monster he was in CT... But I'll stop now before I just repeat what I've already said about that, lol.

I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis! I've been asked to write guides for different games before including Hakumen in BB, but it takes me FOREEEEEEVER to write any tutorial-type stuff since I try to be so thorough--that one post took me several hours and a good bit of re-writing, and even that I was kinda flying (hence the typos). Unfortunately, that also means such guides have a tendency to come out a tad convoluted at parts, so I'm happy I was able to get the concepts of his pressure across without it sounding too garbled, haha. I've recently been wanting to do more of this kind of stuff, so maybe I'll get around to doing some other Haku write-ups sooner instead later.

Good? Not much...

New? A lot.

Might put everything I know here.

SYSTEM

• Overdrive increases magatama gain and makes Zanshin special cancelable.
  Sounds good, just hope it isn't so good it ends up being an excuse/justification for them to make everything else terrible.
  
  
• New Crush Trigger cost 2 magatama, and launches opponent straight up, chaining to 2C.
  Neutral on this.
  
  
  NORMALS
  • 6B is throw cancelable. (?)
    This seems weird, pretty head-scratching.
    
    
  • 2C floats lower.
    Odd change at first glance, but think I realized you can't nerf j2A loops into the dirt if one of the moves used to perform it is still decent, at which point I understood. Then I shook my head.
    
    
  • Forward throw causes stagger instead of blowback, chains to 5C.
    I want to be excited about this, but then I remember how badly throws prorate.
    
    
  • J2A doesn't reset gravity.
    See 2C.
    
    
  • JC wall sticks.
    Interesting, but if the untech time is still fairly awful, I doubt this will yield a positive enough difference for it to be considered an improvement.
    
    
  • J2C floats lower.
    See 2C.
    
    
    DRIVE
    • 5D is delayable.
      
    • 6D is not instant, probably active from circa 10F.
      These are just stupid and unnecessary. Want to know another way to delay 5D? Delay the button press. The real issue though is losing a frame 1 counter against highs. And by making it TEN FRAMES, it will be too slow to be practical--people don't even use 5D much as it is, and a big part of that is because it's not instant. Now imagine how much worse it's going to be with a 10 frame startup instead of 5. I'm sure they won't bother giving them something to compensate, like fixing their trash proration either. Hey Arc, why not just remove their catch and attack frames entirely and make taunts? Then give us a drive that's actually USEFUL.
      
      

    SPECIALS

    [*] New move Agito (J214A) supposedly crosses up from step, but is impossible to combo from even on counterhit and has low damage.

    A non-comboable move for shit damage? I might be disappointed if I hadn't kept my expectations so purposely low when I heard Haku got a new move. The "oki" it sets up will probably be eye-rolling too. Lame.

    [*] Kishuu lost projectile immunity. (?)

    Already covered this before. If it keeps the body attribute invincibility, well, that'll be nice at least.

    [*] Hotaru floats Hakumen higher, launches opponent shorter and lost corner bounce.

    This is going to really fuck with his pressure game IMO, see last post.

    [*] Tsubaki doesn't slide, but doesn't chain to 2B.

    Have they said if it can combo into anything at all? Gonna be pretty salty if our one good overhead turns into another "Well, you get shitty damage... But at least you get crappy 'oki' since it knocks them down right next to you! Right? ...Right?" option ala j.D or 6B.

    Supers

    [*] Mugen constantly drains at the 3x speed.

    How fast did it drain before? I'm too lazy to look up frame data at the moment, but I'll check later if no one answers. At least it's a consistent speed now, that "drains superfast after 8 stars" limitation was just dumb.

    [*] Shippuu during Mugen minimum damage nerfed.

    Yep, clearly this was too good. And by "too good," I mean, "only even decent for 6D > Mugen > Shippu when going for an unburstable kill combo and for salvaging whatever Mugen combo you do from putting up completely laughable damage."

    Oh yeah, then there's this:

    [*] Zantetsu damage nerfed to 2447. It is unknown if proration has changed to compensate.

    [*] Zantetsu damage nerfed to 2447. It is unknown if proration has changed to compensate.

    [*] Zantetsu damage nerfed to 2447. It is unknown if proration has changed to compensate.

    [*] Zantetsu damage nerfed to 2447. It is unknown if proration has changed to compensate.

    [*] ZANTETSU DAMAGE NERFED TO 2447. IT IS UNKNOWN IF PRORATION HAS CHANGED TO COMPENSATE.

    :gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk::gonk:

    HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY fuck.

    They're so intent on overnerfing everything that they're going to tone down one of the most horrible moves not just in Hakumen's moveset, but in the game?

    Yep, I think I can safely say that seals it. I'm done with this. Whatever faint rekindling there was of my interest in BB after hearing of CP's announcement just got extinguished. Thanks a lot Arc, you had a fun game going until your obsession with repeatedly beating everything to death with the nerfbat also ruined the enjoyment I had playing it.

    *sigh* Well, there's always P4U and ACR, I guess.

[WolfCrimson]

^ Don't give up hope yet, that was just the first loketest.

[xlolxlolx]

holy shit bros whats with dem essays

[mAc Chaos]

Awesome breakdown of his pressure. I agree with Steel Coil on the aesthetics part. Although when you first mentioned his command grab to help his non-star pressure I was imagining that it would be meterless.

As for the changes, if there's player feedback that they listen to, maybe there's some Hakumen players there that would fill them in on their opinion.

Edited August 17, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm hoping hakumen will still be strong/decent, I'm tired of playing hakumen as shit tier. He's the leader of the 6 Heroes and one of the best designs in the game, he should not suck ass. Strangely enough I'm not hearing anything bad from Ragna/Valkenhayn/Hazama players about nerfs though.

@Isuna, alright some of those stuff I didn't know, but alright. To be honest with all the unused sound bits, I though Hakumen would be getting new super(s) in this version of the game. But instead we get Agito >_> I also feel that they're trying to create a new combo system with hakumen that keeps him from being so burst safe, which I think is dumb personally. Since when the opponent bursts at the right time, he not only loses his momentum, but his magatama that he used to initiate the combo. Kishuu is my favourite move in the game (ask mAc), it losing it's projectile invincibility means it's just that much harder for us to get in after an opponent bursts in our combos lol.

[mAc Chaos]

Blade = Kishuu xN

Well, it only got the projectile invincibility in Extend I think, so it's not like we haven't lived without it before.

[Saeor12]

It's not that I think Hakumen would be overpowering with that kind of thing, it's more for aesthetic reasons that I wouldn't like Hakumen to ever have a command grab.

Aesthetically, I couldn't agree more but as far as game play is concerned i feel like throws are an even more integral part of Haku's pressure compared to most of the cast just due to the fact that Haku does not have many tools to pressure, especially when we have no meter. That's why i think the command grab is a good option just don't make it super OP, just make it a extra tool to open somebody up.