MAdBater Posted December 1, 2010 Posted December 1, 2010 Playing blazblue allowed me to apply fundamentals to street fighter , kof and even tekken. I did not play fighting games seriously till i played blazblue. Played Guilty Gear and soul Calibur 2 when i was in high school i button mashed my way threw them. If it were not for blazblue coming out i would have hated fighting games. When Blazblue came out something made me want to learn how to play that game. Now i can play most fighting games on the basic level with out button mashing. But i still have a long way to go. Never stop improving and just work on being better and learning from mistakes. As many other people in this thread said play blazblue to master blazblue. Kof or street fighter will not make you better at blazblue.
bbq sauce Posted December 1, 2010 Posted December 1, 2010 I agree, im going to go out on a limb and say i can do alot better in blazblue than most people who played fighting games since back in the day, and blazblue is the first game i really got competitive in. play blazblue to get good at blazblue. how2do?! That's not the point of this (shitty) thread though. The point was playing other games, where the core fundamentals are all that really exists, will flesh that out for you and help you improve as a general fighting game player, not a particular game player.
Silius Posted December 1, 2010 Posted December 1, 2010 You'll get a lot better a lot faster at spacing and mind games if you play some Super Turbo, as that's just about all that game is. You're just isolating a component of fighting games when you play different ones. There's a lot more going on in Blazblue in terms of system mechanics so it can be harder to focus on individual aspects. It's just a roundabout way of doing things. Also, I doubt learning another game and character, in addition to finding competent people to play against in said game will help you more than if you spent all that time practicing on what you lacked in BB. Learning how to space with Ryu won't help you space better with Ragna, you will only get used to spacing, since you're focusing on spacing with Ryu... but you could've just as well focused on spacing with Ragna instead. Heck, the easiest way to learn something like blocking well or spacing is to simply focus on doing just that instead when you play your matches, don't care about winning. Focus on blocking everything the opponent throws at you if you're for example fighting a rushdown character. Same with IB training. Same with spacing training. It's all about doing it until it comes naturally. Your goal should be to be so comfortable with your character and the game that you only need to focus on the psychology of your opponent. So long story short, becoming familiar with another game and character isn't exactly detrimental, but it's not optimal either.
qwerty Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 playing st doesn't make you better at anything else, fyi. there's plenty of st players who suck at 3s and cvs2. bb fundamentals pretty much boil down to this; try to keep the other guy honest and scared to jump. if he doesn't jump, you're golden. if he does jump, you have to play air footsies.
mAc Chaos Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 So you're saying jumping is good? Because I hear the opposite a lot.
qwerty Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 in bb? are you nuts? jumping is retardedly strong in bb, lol. just because a lot of people try to jump from disadvantage doesn't mean it's generally easy to stuff jumps. and once you're in the air, what the hell is the other guy going to do? most characters don't have a good answer to jump + barrier even in cs. i'm not kidding in the least when i say that downback in bb is actually upback.
skd Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 Huh, what i said was semi related. I mean of course you could get a general idea of how to play fighters from playing ST and such, but it wont necessarily make you better at Blazblue, and as the title of the topic states, "Applying fighting game fundamentals to BB..." What i was poorly hinting towards was that you cant really apply fundamentals to BB because its so far from something like ST. And yes, upback is fucking godlike.
qwerty Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 i wasn't really targeting anyone in particular, rather the sentiment itself. st is probably the single best game to learn basics from. but, that doesn't mean that once you learn st basics that you can suddenly just jump in to any other game you want without any practice. especially guilty gear, lol.
tastylumpia Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 (edited) ST fundamentals: Getting consistent 1 frame reversals Having good prediction skills/mindgames (RPS) Knowing extremely specific character matchup information Gameplay situations usually boil down to a combination of all three, IE "I think he's going to do x special so I have to time my character's jab DP reversal that beats his move out". At it's best, the system mechanics of ST are so stripped down that they will teach you the most bare-bone fundamentals that universalize to every fighting game (IE zoning with fireballs and baiting jump ins to anti-air). I'm not really sure it's optimal for BB players to pick up ST just get better BB though. There's such a barrier to entry of pure matchup knowledge to start getting good at the game that it's probably not worth the time, unless you actually want to learn ST, or if you were an SF4 player, lol. Generally, 2D airdash fighters play a bit differently than Capcom style fighters (aka footsie with c.MK). Obviously, double jumps and airdashes is going to change the spacing game dramatically ("anime footsies"). Maybe newer BB players will be attracted to GG and MB. As an example, my friends spacing and rushdown of Tsubaki is an x-copy of basic spacing in Melty Blood. You definitely can apply generalized skills if you're smart enough, especially if you find a character that fits the flow and style of gameplay you want to learn. Edited December 2, 2010 by tastylumpia
Mezagodyah Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 I am just going to say I think people should sit down and really keep working on fundamentals within the game they are playing. I do not believe we need to switch to another game to gain a better improvement or foundation of fundamentals that we can gain through playing the game we are currently into. Yes it may help improve but it's just another way of going in a circle and then coming back to apply all you learned from another game to the game you are playing. I am not knocking anyones thoughts about going to play another game to gain the fundamentals but I believe staying within the game you choose to play is better because you work on controlling other tendencies and you still gain match up knowledge as well. If people can not bare to learn from their mistakes and bite their tongues during gameplay and focus on their fundamental game then they are looking down a hard long road or pretty much at this rate losing a lot and not getting better. Which would lead to no progression into this game as everyone else would be. So whatever way you choose to go about it good luck to you all.
bbq sauce Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 st is probably the single best game to learn basics from. but, that doesn't mean that once you learn st basics that you can suddenly just jump in to any other game you want without any practice. especially guilty gear, lol. Bolded area is the point I was trying to get at, and I agree with the rest of your statement. I'm mainly trying to say, is ST will form your basic foundation better than most games, building the rest of the way up, obviously has to be done by playing x-game, though.. Crawl before walk, walk before run, etc.
Kamui Moon Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 Generally, 2D airdash fighters play a bit differently than Capcom style fighters (aka footsie with c.MK). Obviously, double jumps and airdashes is going to change the spacing game dramatically ("anime footsies"). Maybe newer BB players will be attracted to GG and MB. As an example, my friends spacing and rushdown of Tsubaki is an x-copy of basic spacing in Melty Blood. You definitely can apply generalized skills if you're smart enough, especially if you find a character that fits the flow and style of gameplay you want to learn. what you're not realizing is that you having a good ground game forces people to jump or attempt something extremely risky like a super/dp to get in. this is not only an example of footsies at their best, but also a form of training your opponent. jump+barrier is strong as fuck in bb, but you're still at a huge advantage if you know the spacing game and can outpoke your opponent. this is what ST teaches you. if you're not using your entire toolset to its best (this means more than just normals and specials btw), you get your ass raped in ST. this is something that can be applied to any fighting game. most of the players here have yet to realize that matches are supposed to be more than combo training mode with two people.
tastylumpia Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 (edited) what you're not realizing is that you having a good ground game forces people to jump or attempt something extremely risky like a super/dp to get in. this is not only an example of footsies at their best, but also a form of training your opponent. jump+barrier is strong as fuck in bb, but you're still at a huge advantage if you know the spacing game and can outpoke your opponent. this is what ST teaches you. if you're not using your entire toolset to its best (this means more than just normals and specials btw), you get your ass raped in ST. this is something that can be applied to any fighting game. most of the players here have yet to realize that matches are supposed to be more than combo training mode with two people. The thing is, the ground game in ST feels so different than the ground game in BB. I guess there will always be stuff like the basic poke, counter-poke, walk up throw (dash up in BB's case) and other rudimentary spacing skills, but the flow of the game feels completely different. You won't learn how to do 5 hit gatling mixups, burst bait, or how to IB and react to overheads in ST. Yes, you will learn how to "train" your opponent, I won't dispute that. ST taught me the best in regards to basic mindgames. Learning how to utilize your toolset in ST will give you some foundational skill, but again, why can't you just learn to utilize your entire toolset in the context of BB. Hell, if you want to learn a different aspect of play, just pick up a alt and find out their strengths and weaknesses and why they are the way they are, compared to other characters (especially your main) and in relation to the game engine. It'll be an easier transition since you're working within the same system mechanics, instead of wondering "will this strategy apply if they can do a defensive backdash?" Also, bolded part is kind of sad but describes a lot of players. LK brought it up in the podcast about how there's so much combo discussion and so little matchup discussion. :sadface: Edited December 3, 2010 by tastylumpia
TD Posted December 2, 2010 Posted December 2, 2010 some of these suggestions helped quite a bit. l really do need to utilize training mode: i'd hate to have an embarassing loss to a newb at this game lol. l think it's about time l learn how to read frame data and hit the laboritories until l have blisters. l'll admit l spend 10 mins in training, learn a combo and get to playing, it's why my defense sucks monkey balls. thanks to this thread!
Arvoyea Posted December 3, 2010 Author Posted December 3, 2010 what you're not realizing is that you having a good ground game forces people to jump or attempt something extremely risky like a super/dp to get in. this is not only an example of footsies at their best, but also a form of training your opponent. jump+barrier is strong as fuck in bb, but you're still at a huge advantage if you know the spacing game and can outpoke your opponent. this is what ST teaches you. if you're not using your entire toolset to its best (this means more than just normals and specials btw), you get your ass raped in ST. this is something that can be applied to any fighting game. most of the players here have yet to realize that matches are supposed to be more than combo training mode with two people. The thing is, the ground game in ST feels so different than the ground game in BB. I guess there will always be stuff like the basic poke, counter-poke, walk up throw (dash up in BB's case) and other rudimentary spacing skills, but the flow of the game feels completely different. You won't learn how to do 5 hit gatling mixups, burst bait, or how to IB and react to overheads in ST. Yes, you will learn how to "train" your opponent, I won't dispute that. ST taught me the best in regards to basic mindgames. Learning how to utilize your toolset in ST will give you some foundational skill, but again, why can't you just learn to utilize your entire toolset in the context of BB. Hell, if you want to learn a different aspect of play, just pick up a alt and find out their strengths and weaknesses and why they are the way they are. It'll be an easier transition since you're working within the same system mechanics, instead of wondering "will this strategy apply if they can do a defensive backdash?" Also, bolded part is kind of sad but describes a lot of players. LK brought it up in the podcast about how there's so much combo discussion and so little matchup discussion. :sadface: Well, I'm glad there is at least discussion on this. I'd thought there would be no positive additions or even get locked because it sounds like a stupid thing to say. I'm not talking about playing ST and applying stuff from there to BB, but it does help some, but the more universal topics of playing fighting games at competitive levels.. I agree it's better to get better at BB by playing more BB. But I don't have anyone to play the game with except the crappy button-reading AI and netplay. I have often lost to the most stupid stuff. It's hard to think actively about the game for some reason. I am in a slump in everything anyway, so I'll just keep thinking even more as I play.
Andarel Posted December 3, 2010 Posted December 3, 2010 An easy way to start the process is, if something doesn't work, asking yourself why you did what you did. Did they jump out of your tick throw for the 3rd time? If so, jab into anti-air might be what you want. Did you throw jab jab low overhead four times in a row and are wondering why they blocked it? Did they just backdash out of your blockstring again? If so, did you leave a large gap in the same spot? Maybe you can sweep them or use a move with long range to mess with them. Every little bit helps, and in general it's not like netplay is completely trash due to a bit of input lag: prediction is always going to be useful. Being able to read patterns and fix your own while picking out your opponent's...it's something really important. Look at pro Street Fighter players (especially Daigo, who is amazing because of this pretty much) and you'll see it, and it's only a little more complicated in airdash fighters. Breaking off autopilot is so important, and sure ST will help you get better at ST but why throw out the game you actually want to play? Long story short, you're playing against a person - it's not a combo video, or training mode. They do things. Maybe even things that are illogical, or tricky. Conceited as that sounds, most people have bad habits - as a player trying to improve, your job is to start picking those out and exploiting them. At the same time, look at how people block - it's harder to react to overheads online, so if your overhead gets blocked, why? Are you being predictable with it? Is your crossup always crossing up instead of being a legit mixup? Thinking while you play is the most important thing. And, with a bit of work, that gets you progress. If your opponent loves to dash 5a, catch them with a 3c. Respect their blockstrings if you need to, but reversal out occasionally. It's all about practice, and experience.
SkyKing Posted December 5, 2010 Posted December 5, 2010 ST is Super Street Fighter II Turbo. Pretty much THE standard for fundamental fighting game play. I'd say that when it comes to fighting games, have a general gist of fundamentals will go a long way in learn each one. Even if each game has it's own gimmicks and system differences, you have an advantage over other players when it comes to knowing how the games work. In the case of BB, the fundamentals are truly important. Knowing movement, attacks, and match-ups are all keys to stepping up your game. I notice that players new to FGs play only to do the flashy combos and/or play for the sake of their favorite characters without a game plan in mind on how to get better. Many have trouble grasping the ideas of block the correct way, or knowing how to space properly so that you maximize on your advantages while limiting the options of your opponent. Training mode and replays are excellent features that are available in the newer fighters, so take advantage. One way to capitalize on this is to save replays, especially when you lose. Analyze in what fashion you lost, and think of ways to overcome the lapse in judgment. Then, take those ideas into Training Mode, record the dummy to mimic the moves and patterns that beat you, and test out those ideas you came up with. Remember, this process takes time and effort. You don't get better overnight, and practice can only make you stronger as a player. In regards to other games, ST is a really nice starting place to learn fundamentals. The game has all of the basics of FGs in it, and in turn gives the players limited options so blocking and spacing become the foundation of playing. For new-gen games, Guilty Gear has option similar to BB, while maintaining limited options when pressured and on wake-up. GG is also a good game to learn okizeme , or options on an opponent that has been knocked down. For specifics, BB's jump back barrier is equivalent to SF's crouch block in that it cover many options that your opponent might throw out. Air dashing forward should be treated like a forward jump in ST: it isn't safe unless you make it so. Too many players try to rush in with air dash, and competent player will know how to react to it. I'd say that limiting habits of forward air dashing is a giant step in improving new-gen play.
Feanor Posted December 5, 2010 Posted December 5, 2010 ST is Super Street Fighter II Turbo. Pretty much THE standard for fundamental fighting game play. It's a bit jarring for me how everyone omits the "2D" part when talking about fighting games. Sure, it's a site about 2D fighters, but I feel as if I should be ashamed I've spent my youth with Tekken and Virtua Fighter, or as if those games don't exist at all. Don't mind me though, just a thought. On topic: as some people have already pointed out, playing another game to get better at BB is inefficient to say the least. For the people who never played (or in my case, who hated) SSF2T it's such an enormous investment of time (and money in some cases) that it'd seem like a huge waste if it didn't magically transform me into Kaqn or Zakiyama. Instead I believe the BB scene is missing something akin to the famous David Sirlin tutorials (the Incomplete Guide to KOF comes to mind as well). Actually, as far as my dedication to learn 2D FG fundamentals goes I don't think I'll go any further than watching his tutorials and trying to apply those basic rules and tricks to my BB gameplay. I think it's the most efficient option for those of us who aren't pros and need to divide their time between work, education, family and entertainment. Of course I'm speaking for my kind, and I don't think I'll ever participate in a BB tournament unless I organize one myself at a convention. Seems like this thread started as something meant for high-level players but then got a bit derailed, so I hope I'm not off-topic much.
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