Rhiya Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Unsafe frame traps? wtf are you smoking? loooooooooooooooool Yes, frame traps catch mashers but if they fail to catch mashing (because, say, the person WASN'T) there's this thing called recovery on your moves One of the only frame traps I can remember hearing about that isn't 5b 5b ends in 3C 3C is -13, 3CC is -26 and the only thing 3C gatlings into soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Edited January 27, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
deadsnake Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 It depends on the matchup, but in matches were the opponent relies a lot on their midrange game, Litchi can choose to play staff or staffless (situationally) to help her approach, and on hit/counter hit gets much more damage than they do. These would include Jin (midrange CH damage can be like 3000, but Litchi can confirm for 3000-3500 and corner carry), Ragna (midrange damage is only 2000 or so), Tsubaki (lol). Against characters with short range normals who need to get in, Litchi can zone them full screen by launching the staff, and keep them out midrange with her superior range when she's holding the staff. Makoto and Noel struggle against this. Against long range characters/zoners, Litchi can use the staff to clash projectiles and make her approach safe. If they have some sort of item, thanks to the long range on her staff normals, she can hit them and then their item/assist back to back from a safe range. This isn't just Mu and Lambda, but also Carl, Arakune, and Hazama. hmmm.... true, but somehow things always get messed up on the real match >___> but awesome answer there, I've noted it down... XDDD
Lord Knight Posted January 27, 2011 Author Posted January 27, 2011 Good read. Ragna's 5C isn't that good though, it's too range specific. Ragna's 5C is great from it's range. Isn't match-up knowledge important for every character? Is there a difference in how much match-up knowledge say a Jin or Carl needs vs how much a Lambda or Litchi needs? I'm talking specifically about neutral in that regard. So for say, Jin or Carl, they can play most matches the same and just use their tools well, but for Litchi or Lambda, they tend to have some more specific answers in neutral than other characters. Elaborate. Tons. more stuff I feel like Tsubaki's pressure is actually strong. Remember in each category I'm only talking about that aspect of the character, so the tools they do use a lot (those I listed) are good imo. Tsubaki can make you block for a while if she wants but doesn't do too much else well :/. Ever since they made the move slower and extended Carl's 5C hitbox in CS, this move trades more often than not. Just look at that hitbox. Am I missing something here? You quoted the answer to your question, lol. Carl's 5C is fucking gdlk at controlling space, and any possible trade is usually in his favor because of Nirvana being there. Nirvana in front of him and him standing behind and using 5C is pretty much impossible to get past.
A.X.I.S. Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Good read. Ragna's 5C isn't that good though, it's too range specific. Doesn't feel that way to me. It just doesn't hit as high as it did in CT.
LordSpectreX Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Pressure - Strong without curse. How? Arakune has the worst normals in the game. Plus, the lack of a forward dash and a quick Air Dash hurts him massively with pressure. Not to mention he lacks range, a lot of his normals are unsafe. J.B is his only good pressure tool. And even that is beatable with many anti-airs. Arakune's pre-curse pressure is HORRIBLE. Yet alone strong. Even if you're talking about Zoning pressure, 2D and 6D are too imprecise. JD can be DASHED through, and clouds don't even have a hitbox. Arakune is a character that plays defensively so they can punish approaches or turtling with curse meter.
Skye Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I've seen Tager's max damage around 6k with 2c FC and Tech Wheel > Terra Break ender.
Airk Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I feel like Tsubaki's pressure is actually strong. Remember in each category I'm only talking about that aspect of the character, so the tools they do use a lot (those I listed) are good imo. Tsubaki can make you block for a while if she wants but doesn't do too much else well :/. It looks this way from the outside, and if you don't know her well, it would seem to be the case, but actually her blockstrings are full of 1 frame holes that will let people stuff her with any frame 1 invulnerable move. Just going from 5B to 5BB leaves a 1 frame gap where if someone wants to start up a Jayoku/Inferno Divider/Gravity Well/720, well, they can. Basically, Aksys failed at math when designing her, and she's FULL of level 3 attacks with 3 active frames that gatling into moves with 13 frames of startup, allowing the 16 frames of blockstun to wear off JUST as the next move is suppose to hit... unless of course the opponent has started a frame 1 invulnerable move. If you check her frame data vs characters with working blockstrings, you'll discover that the other characters either have shorter startups on all their moves (Ragna) or have extra special added blockstun on their attacks (Bang) to allow the revolver cancels to do their jobs. This seems to be fixed in CS2, but in CS1, this is one of the major problems with Tsubaki - if it weren't for this issue, she'd just be kinda on the weak side instead of outright poor. You quoted the answer to your question, lol. Carl's 5C is fucking gdlk at controlling space, and any possible trade is usually in his favor because of Nirvana being there. Nirvana in front of him and him standing behind and using 5C is pretty much impossible to get past.
huey253 Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 i don't think 1 frame gaps are killing tsubaki. that risk vs reward for mashing out is a much bigger problem lol
Rhiya Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) It looks this way from the outside, and if you don't know her well, it would seem to be the case, but actually her blockstrings are full of 1 frame holes that will let people stuff her with any frame 1 invulnerable move. Just going from 5B to 5BB leaves a 1 frame gap where if someone wants to start up a Jayoku/Inferno Divider/Gravity Well/720, well, they can. This is because USING FOLLOWUP NORMALS IN PRESSURE IS BAD 5b: +1 5bb: -13 (!!!) 2b: -1 2bb: -7 (!!!) 5c: -9 (cc that shit) 5cc: -21 (!!!) You get the idea. Followup normals were never meant for pressure use. Edited January 27, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
Airk Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 This is because USING FOLLOWUP NORMALS IN PRESSURE IS BAD 5b: +1 5bb: -13 (!!!) 2b: -1 2bb: -7 (!!!) 5c: -9 (cc that shit) 5cc: -21 (!!!) You get the idea. Followup normals were never meant for pressure use. Actually, this is irrelevant except when you stop the string at that attack. You cancel all that recovery as long as you keep using gatling cancels, the problem is that they can reversal you anytime, and once you're done, well, you're at minus something and have to charge/jump/special cancel. The thing about the 1 frame holes is that you can't even get as far as 2b to just be at -1 without leaving yourself open to a reversal that other characters don't have to worry about. And if there were no one frame holes, there would be no mashing out.
toanenadiz Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 But there are some characters that don't have a frame 1 invulnerable move. What about Tsubaki's pressure on them?
Airk Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 But there are some characters that don't have a frame 1 invulnerable move. What about Tsubaki's pressure on them? There aren't actually very many, if you count Distortion Drives. On those characters, she can maintain a sort of pressure as long as they don't instant block, because she can use charge canceling to be only -a few at the end of her blockstring, but once that happens, her pressure sortof expires and she's back at neutral.
LordSpectreX Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Plus, 2D cancelling is a good neutral reseting tool, than a tool for applying pressure. Tsubaki's attacks have weak blockstun. Combined with the fact that 2D has a 5F recovery time, add the truth that it takes more than a frame to press a button and let go of it. Then the startup time for 5B or the fact that she'll need a dash to do her quicker attacks. Even if you 2D cancel and close range into 2A, you're still left at a 12F disadvantage at LEAST. Anyone looking out for 2D can easily poke her out of it. That's really where the only scary problem of Tsubaki comes along. You have to pay attention to when 2D comes out, but also if there's going to be an unblockable 22D. But we're talking about pressure here. Most characters can just jump back when Tsubaki does 2D/22D and she's basically lost all her pressure. And I'm not even including IBing. Jesus.
LordSpectreX Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) There aren't actually very many, if you count Distortion Drives. Rachel. That's it. Edit: I suppose technically Carl does not have one either. Though Cantana will still hit. Edited January 27, 2011 by LordSpectreX
Lord Knight Posted January 27, 2011 Author Posted January 27, 2011 This is because USING FOLLOWUP NORMALS IN PRESSURE IS BAD 5b: +1 5bb: -13 (!!!) 2b: -1 2bb: -7 (!!!) 5c: -9 (cc that shit) 5cc: -21 (!!!) You get the idea. Followup normals were never meant for pressure use. Didn't know there would be so much crying that I said Tsubaki's pressure was decent, lol. Anyways, Tsubaki thrives off MB style pressure, so it's just a matter of mixing safe things with unsafe things. Just the damage reward you get is lower than theirs. You don't have to argue that Tsubaki is weak this time, lol. You don't have to restrict yourself to just ground normals. Magic jC is good with her. Pressure - Strong without curse. How? Arakune has the worst normals in the game. Plus, the lack of a forward dash and a quick Air Dash hurts him massively with pressure. Not to mention he lacks range, a lot of his normals are unsafe. J.B is his only good pressure tool. And even that is beatable with many anti-airs. Arakune's pre-curse pressure is HORRIBLE. Yet alone strong. Even if you're talking about Zoning pressure, 2D and 6D are too imprecise. JD can be DASHED through, and clouds don't even have a hitbox. Arakune is a character that plays defensively so they can punish approaches or turtling with curse meter. Underrating Arakune's precurse game is bad. When he's in, he's in. Barrier cancel airdashed JBs' are VERY good. 5A > 6A isn't good when telegraphed, but 5A > 6B is tight, and 5A > 5D can only be punished if the 5A is IB'd, making them good tools. The best part about his pressure is that he doesn't really care if it hits you, it's just an added bonus - he wants to make you block things that add to the curse bar. People tend to underrate his pressure a lot.
TD Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 lk, i took your advice, introduced it to the mu boards, and now FlyingVe and l have been doing well with developing her matchups alot more than they are now. thanks for that! but we're a bit confused with somethings as of couse neither of us are super epic god players or anything. its not that our info is lacking but it really just needs to be reread by a more seasoned player. basically how much do you know about mu? Ve just finished ragna and we'd love your input.
Lord Knight Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 I don't know much about Mu besides her main gameplan and how to play against her as Litchi. I wouldn't mind reading it though, I read most of the matchup threads on DL. You might wanna talk to pulsr for more insight, he's probably the best US Mu right now.
xHarukashii Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 LK, how the fuck do you play valk match up with jinaga?
Sophisticat Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Good shit LK, I love reading these. I used to re-read the GG list back in the day because it was nice, juicy info. That said, Hakumen has the game's highest max damage, not Ara. 6c FC leads to a potential 11.5k, and Mugen is instant-death on anyone. Outside of these I think there's a 10star 10k+ Hotaru FC corner combo, but it was posted a long time ago. Top 'o the line stuff right there whatever the case.
Skye Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Arakune can deal 13k on max curse meter, 2c starter and 50 heat, thing is usually no one survives that long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0iN7x7xL4&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s
FlyingVe Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 The difference is, a 10 star hotaru combo is combo movie stuff, but 10k in curse is a match to match reality.
ATG Warlord Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) 1-do IB'ing and blocking overheads go together? Maybe it's just me but I find blocking overheads really tough when I'm IB'ing. 2- while playing (whether blocking, attacking, neutral), do you look or concentrate more on your character or your opponent's character? Edited January 29, 2011 by ATG Warlord
Alzarath Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) 1- Just you 2- Watch your opp. You should already know what your char is doing. Pay attention to resources as well, both theirs and yours. Edited January 29, 2011 by Alzarath
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