Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 If you're getting that far ahead of it, then you should also go ahead and list the things that beat it, like jabs, DPs, and what have you. I'll have to agree with me being wrong in calling it a gimmick though. All in all, his resets lead to high/low/throw mix-up and without 50 Heat, the high/low is already out of the way and all that's left is the throw. Now the other way of mix-up that's left is his jumping cross-ups, but those are very risky and easy to see. Is there anything else I'm missing? The guy has mix-up but I just laughed at the though of "strong mix-up", more like gimmicky and risky mix-up. As mentioned, it's not getting that far ahead of it. It's your opponent's reflexes, most good players aren't going to mash or stick anything out in that situation, they're going to play it safe. Jin has good enough mixup, it's complimented by his neutral game. When you aren't in a situation to do mixup, you can just play neutral until you land a hit. His mixup isn't gimmicky (gimmicks are options that have no variables) and it's not particularly risky. Could you explain why it's risky to you? Everyone can get DP'd or mashed out of their mixup in almost all cases.
CakeWasBannedd Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 wait wait wait is this guy trying to say jin's 6B is viable in pressure? the same 6B that almost every character can beat out on reaction for a free combo and that good japanese jin's hardly use ever? OOOOOOOOOLOOOOOOOOO
CakeWasBannedd Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 well actually it depends on the situation if you're playing someone good who doesn't mash throw when they get close like this guy was talking about, then it's bad generally. but if the jin is good and is making you respect his pressure and mixup, then you could get freaked out and let him 6B you, allowing him to continue pressure or get a free combo if you tried to hit him out of it if you're playing someone who mashes throw when they get close, then 6b is amazing.
A.X.I.S. Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 You guys...you do know this argument is pretty dumb right?
CakeWasBannedd Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 actually fuck it nevermind i'm wrong i totally forgot that 6B is really viable if they're afraid you're going to throw them so try to tech the throw then get hit by 6B I'M SORRY MISSEDFRC FORGIVE MEEEE~
Spirit Juice Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 If you guys really think Taokaka and Litchi are SS tier, we may as well ban them from tournaments because SS tier is god tier realm. Like, ST Akuma and Ivan Ooze kind of ridiculousness.
huey253 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 6B is amazing, even in japan. this is a really bad argument (see also, bb grabs suck) hey i totally think litchi+taokaka are a bit stronger then the rest of the cast, but not SS tier. taokaka is lolz though
Nini Heart Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 If you're getting that far ahead of it, then you should also go ahead and list the things that beat it, like jabs, DPs, and what have you. I'll have to agree with me being wrong in calling it a gimmick though. All in all, his resets lead to high/low/throw mix-up and without 50 Heat, the high/low is already out of the way and all that's left is the throw. Now the other way of mix-up that's left is his jumping cross-ups, but those are very risky and easy to see. Is there anything else I'm missing? The guy has mix-up but I just laughed at the though of "strong mix-up", more like gimmicky and risky mix-up. Makoto has risky and gimmicky mixup yet it's blowing up Japan. What's your point? And why is the high/low out? Jin can combo off his overhead in CS1 without meter and he can combo off his low too. And he can combo off his throw too. And his jumping cross ups are ambiguous since he can do fakes and make them relatively safe with Ice sword.
advancedNoob Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 A bit stronger is an understatement. Litchi has to hit you once and you are as good as dead. She will carry you to the corner and 50+ heat in the process, then it's a knock down followed by DD corner trap. And saying shit like l2block is stupid, since graphically her DD overlays most of her movement, hence it becomes a guess game that can kill you. Taokaka is just stupid when it comes to catching her. She just freely flyes around the stage baiting your AA and when she get's close to you, you aren't just low or high blocking, but are also blocking a shit ton of cross ups with barely any room for a CH. Her ridiculous speed also makes her grabs more viable, because let's face it, her pressure is FAR beyond any other character in BB. Oh, and lets not forget the damage output she has on top of what was already mentioned.
Nini Heart Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 That thing when he looks like he's gonna cross you up with J.D or J.B, then does his 236D in the air. I always get mindfucked and go from 4 to 6 and get a lucky parry lol.
A.X.I.S. Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Its a Pseudo Cross up. @ advancedNoob: When you have to fight top tiers you always need a lot of match up experience to come out on top. but sadly it can only go so far. And I am not gonna argue with Tao, she is pretty dumb.
Nini Heart Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 But it fucks with your reflexes, since you expect a J.D/J.B crossup and don't get crossed up. Thus the "ambiguity" Can you even react to that? I always get lucky with parries vs Leaf but still, I must learn how to block this mixup since Noel and Hazama have no parries.
Moy_X7 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 His mixup isn't gimmicky (gimmicks are options that have no variables) and it's not particularly risky. Could you explain why it's risky to you? Everyone can get DP'd or mashed out of their mixup in almost all cases. I guess when I'm talking about it being risky is when you throw out 6As and cross-ups, since they're usually relatively easy to react to and punish. However, you do have a point in the end here, mix-up usually comes with risks, regardless of the character. @ Nini Heart - Without 50 Heat, you're pretty much fucked if 6A gets blocked, it's too much of a risk to take when Tager can punish you with a 720 and the rest of the cast can easily get a 3K+ off lol -16 on block. Of course, this is ruled out if you go for the 3C > 236D reset where the overhead is in the form of a well-timed air dash > j.B/j.2C. You could pull it off with other ice resets but they're not nearly as good as the above. Well, I'm done with this discussion as I've been proven wrong and I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong
Lord Knight Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 But it fucks with your reflexes, since you expect a J.D/J.B crossup and don't get crossed up. Thus the "ambiguity" Can you even react to that? I always get lucky with parries vs Leaf but still, I must learn how to block this mixup since Noel and Hazama have no parries. That stuff isn't that bad. It's the stuff like the xx > sj2C > jD > airdash j236D/jD stuff that are practically unseeable Jin's gimmick/trick level is high, and he gets good damage off them.
qwerty Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 qwerty, That's a poor response. 6B is playing with your opponent's reflexes, it has nothing to do with mashing and/or teching throws. It's natural to go for a grab at point blank range... it's natural to go for a 7 frame grab in a game where instant block puts you at +5, jabs are 5 frames and jump startup is 4? as a way to get out of pressure, at that? it's almost as if you can play respectfully and learn to instant block to avoid this nonsense entirely.
Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 It's a good thing you don't play this game, isn't it?
qwerty Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 it's a good thing i don't defend stupid, scrubby play just because japan does it. i'm not saying that cs jin has weak mixup by any means, but 6B is not why he's scary. not at all. it's a footnote at best.
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Kind of agree with Qwerty, Jin's 6B is pretty so-so. I can 5A post IB Jin's 6B whenever I feel like it, on reaction. Also, after I OS the grab tech (If I do feel un-confident in a grab tech), I can usually double up OS a mash out for if he threw the 6B. It's as slow as most overheads that have problems with getting mashed out of, it's understandable it has problems with mashing out, like qwerty is saying. To get it to be problematic, Jin's got to do a lot of fancy, often risky frame traps, as those are the only ones that set it up well.
qwerty Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 let's take a quick look at the ways you can beat the 6B frametrap - if you're so confident that he's going to throw you, why not just let him throw you and tech it? you're only given 13 frames (and don't give me the excuse of not expecting the throw; you're the one saying it's legitimate to buffer throw techs during blockstun in bbcs). you can even buffer ib in case he doesn't throw you, talk about win-win! - alternatively, train yourself to react to a twenty fucking five frame move so you don't freak out and go OMG HE'S RUNNING - alternatively, instant block whatever he does before 6B and jump out/mash out of it. - alternatively, instant block jin blockstrings in general so he can't put you in that situation. so yeah, in conclusion, worry about his ambiguous crossups and actually threatening frametraps, not this crap that's designed to beat people who buffer throw techs in a game specifically designed not to let you do that.
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Gee qwerty, it's a shame you're not actually good, because you think about how to play quite well. :toot::toot::toot:
Beautiful Death Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Source: a recent JBBS thread S: Litchi, Bang A: Taokaka, Arakune, Carl, Hazama B: Lambda, Hakumen, Ragna, Jin C: Noel, Rachel, Tsubaki, Tager RARRRRR. HOW DOES RAGNA GO FROM 3RD BEST IN GAME ALL THE WAY TO NUMBER NINE. And to think the reason I switched from Lambdude-11 to Ragdude was because I thought he was a lot better then her according to the tiers at the time. Funny how life works. OH well. There's always next time. Goddaymn. Makoto better be seriously top three or whatever or Imma kill myself out of shame at not being able to tier whore properly. Edited January 25, 2011 by Beautiful Death
Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Actually my remark is towards how you apparently remove human error all the while speaking ill of people even getting hit by the tactic while also treating the option as a single entity. Why don't you just block daisharin mixup? I mean 6A is 22 frames! What kind of garbage are they trying to pull? Wait a minute, it works because there are other options, because you can train your opponent and/or rely on human error. Just like this case. Getting mashed out? It's time to frame trap at the place you would normally do it, don't use it so much or even do it from a different setup!
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 In japanese tier lists, there is no order in tier. Ragna would be third best, in that tier list, and far from unplayable. Don't worry, Makoto looks retarded in CS2. Who needs a balanced game when you can pick the best character and beat a lot of people easier, anyway? sG that's a pretty terrible example, because you can't mash out of Daisharin mix up, and it's highly difficult to even reversal out of Daisharin mix up, and ON TOP OF THAT, she's covered by the staff. AND, it's 4 frames faster, and she doesn't jump off the ground.
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