Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 that's a pretty terrible example While it is exaggerated I disagree, the point is it's flawed logic. Also I can use a better example. 2010, SBO semi-finals Tetsu vs. Fumo. Fumo blocks 6B twice and also respects 6D in a blockstring. Why didn't he just mash out, according to his view? :|
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Lack of matchup experience, or Tetsu did in fact use the highly risky set ups to make his 6B mean something because he's a good player with good reads. But also, I've found that a lot of Japanese players simply do not take advantage of how ridiculous IB is in CS1 (And I do believe the current IB ruins 6B completely, in my experience). The ones that do win. Ah, and Fumo plays Arakune? It's harder to mash with Arakune because his normals are so ass. Also, when the pressure is on, sometimes high level players can fuck up, or second guess themselves. Edited January 25, 2011 by Dacidbro
smooshman Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) ^they IB for heat. Jin's mixup is... meh. application in pressure is not good, if they block it, you're either fucked or lose pressure, and the risk/reward for it is less than desirable. If Jin has heat, it's better and can be hard to predict, or just make it safe. However his freeze mixup is much better, he gets far more time to do shit. Edited January 25, 2011 by smooshman
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think it's important to realize Jin's not an amazing character, but has all the tools a player could ever need simultaneously. When a good player uses Jin, it can be hard to deal with, but not because his 6B is good. Lol.
Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't come close to saying it's a lack of matchup experience, Fumo has been playing for long enough where I wouldn't be surprised if he was familiar with every matchup. I'm also not trying to pass off 6B/throw as some godlike mixup. It certainly is not garbage but it's not something you just throw out often. It's like saying TRM is garbage, it still gets the best of us. You can't 100% count on reacting to the 6B every single time, there are times where you just can't predict with certainty that it's coming, thus why it gets blocked ever. Yes, blocking beats it. Yes, jump outs can beat it. Yes, reacting beats it. Sounds like virtually every mixup in the game. It's a decent mixup with great rewards when it works, and it's not terribly high risk (you're in the air thus removing some risk, not to mention most people who try to mash out are literally mashing the A button). While it may be just a footnote, all footnotes wind up being supplementary. EDIT: You all need to remember that this discussion arose over the mixup directly being called a "gimmick", and I disputed. I never once said it was exceptional, nor it was his best. Arakune's 5A is 6 frames. That's average. Not a good counter-argument. Folding under pressure is human error. Edited January 25, 2011 by sG
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I would actually say yes, it is a "gimmicky mix up". I would certainly insist that if you IB the attack before 6B, you should react to it and punch them in the face. I am, most commonly, more often rewarded for Jin throwing 6B than I am hurt; I would call that a weak point in the mix. Arakune's 5A is 6 frames with a weak hit box and low reward. Also, Arakune's 5A mash would pretty much only beat Jin's 6B, where with many other characters if I IB mash I will beat almost anything, making the 6B weaker by proxy. But Arakune should backdash that shit easy, especially since Jin has very few answers to the backdash unless Ara is in the corner (In which case, he should spider super it). Human tournament error is completely legitimate. You ever see a top player drop some easy combo and lose for it? Same shit, but on defense. Doesn't mean they didn't mess up.
qwerty Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Actually my remark is towards how you apparently remove human error all the while speaking ill of people even getting hit by the tactic while also treating the option as a single entity. i'm not saying you should never get hit by it, but i am saying that it's not nearly as reliable of a mixup as people make it out to be. the only reason it works as well as it does is because people (even in japan) are mashing throw tech when they should just be blocking and reacting to the tech window. i don't think anyone can tech bb throws 100% of the time, but at the least you should be able to tech them often enough that you can get out of situations like this safely most of the time. even if you end up getting thrown, it's still better than getting counter hit to death.
Tong Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I believe mixups are something that forces you to guess, because it occurs so fast you cant simply react to it. Like Abel's stuff. Maybe thats because they say Ragna's mixup is so lacking, most of his moves are predicable. A gimmick otherwise, would be something that works only sometimes and relies in your knowledge of your opponents behavior.
Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I would actually say yes, it is a "gimmicky mix up". I would certainly insist that if you IB the attack before 6B, you should react to it and punch them in the face. I am, most commonly, more often rewarded for Jin throwing 6B than I am hurt; I would call that a weak point in the mix. Arakune's 5A is 6 frames with a weak hit box and low reward. Also, Arakune's 5A mash would pretty much only beat Jin's 6B, where with many other characters if I IB mash I will beat almost anything, making the 6B weaker by proxy. But Arakune should backdash that shit easy, especially since Jin has very few answers to the backdash unless Ara is in the corner (In which case, he should spider super it). Human tournament error is completely legitimate. You ever see a top player drop some easy combo and lose for it? Same shit, but on defense. Doesn't mean they didn't mess up. Well I don't know what Jin's you play or their habits, so I can't really retort to you beating it out so often. Jin's 6B moves forward, weak hitbox or low reward Arakune's 5A will still hit him out. Also you really shouldn't be mashing. If you IB 2A and mash, what if he does 5C? That's a free CH. Obviously you can just sit still and react, but getting out of it every time is not free and 100% safe. That's why it's not gimmicky, to me at least. He has answers to your answers, and they're all safe. Human error is messing up. I haven't tried to say otherwise. But it's human error, it's unavoidable. It's something to account for when discussing a real-life setting, always. i'm not saying you should never get hit by it, but i am saying that it's not nearly as reliable of a mixup as people make it out to be. the only reason it works as well as it does is because people (even in japan) are mashing throw tech when they should just be blocking and reacting to the tech window. i don't think anyone can tech bb throws 100% of the time, but at the least you should be able to tech them often enough that you can get out of situations like this safely most of the time. even if you end up getting thrown, it's still better than getting counter hit to death. I agree with this, 100%. I've just chosen to acknowledge that sometimes shit happens and people slip up, and that most who think it's coming will opt to play it safe and block, rather than mash out. Mashing out is arguably higher risk than anything Jin could do in that situation.
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Mashing out is not high risk with a read combined with a reaction. Anyway, it's obvious I won't change your mind about this.
Nakkiel Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Well if you want to take that route, alright.
Dacidbro Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Lol what other route is there, continue to say the opposite thing of the other forever? Come on, you know we aren't getting anywhere.
bbq sauce Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Who needs a balanced game when you can pick the best character and beat a lot of people easier, anyway? heh Switch to AH3. ^^^^^^^
CakeWasBannedd Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 heh ^^^^^^^ this nigga knows what's up
Lord Knight Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 On Jin 6B discussion - this move is still a top class move when used properly imo there's just a reason you don't see things like 6C > 6B or 5C > 6B often, for the above reasons but when used in a way to beat throws, it's excellent getting CH against a whiffed throw or being +4 on barrier block (os throw tech) is pretty good imo!
huey253 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 oh yeah. TRM can be setup so that you can't jump or mash out. so the threat of TRM always exists in everybodies's mixup.(which is probably part of the reason grabs got nerfed in cs2)
huey253 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 nah man. Bang stands alone in S tier. didn't you see the stickbug tier list?
LordSpectreX Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Remember when Hazama was S Tier? And everyone who opposed it was called a scrub? Good times.
huey253 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 EC tier list? something slightly cool my tier list from Jan 16, 2010 12:28 pm PT on Gamespot.com top litchi, bang high RAGNA! (easy 4k bnb) HAKUMEN Arakune Taokaka mid hazama (people are giving him wAYYYY too much credit) carl lambda jin noel (BARELY) low tager, tsubaki Rachel tier. lols
ZONG_one Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Remember when Hazama was S Tier? And everyone who opposed it was called a scrub? Good times. What do you mean? This is still fact. :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 :3
huey253 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 i heard after the last NEC the tierlist became. Litchi Hazama Carl Arakune unimportant
Blade Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I got a question: years ago I saw a HUGE writeup justifying each character in their placement in the tiers in GGXXAC, offense capability, defense ability, move rank, stats, the works (I think it might've been Gwyrgyn Blood who wrote it but I could be wrong). Will we see something like that for these BB Tierlists?
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