[CS2] Tsubaki Yayoi - Combo Discussion 3.0

[BatousaiJ]

I would assume under this circumstance that you could also add some more hits for extra damage though.

You don't automatically get free extra damage off j.214D enders outside of a single 6C with no follow up. To take full advantage of 2 charge corner combos, you have to generally plan for it from the beginning to be able to link something after the j.214D as if you just try to add a j.214D at the end of a long 1 charge combo thinking you're going to continue the combo, it won't work at all and you'd also lose your positional advantage at the same time.

[Airk]

You don't automatically get free extra damage off j.214D enders outside of a single 6C with no follow up. To take full advantage of 2 charge corner combos, you have to generally plan for it from the beginning to be able to link something after the j.214D as if you just try to add a j.214D at the end of a long 1 charge combo thinking you're going to continue the combo, it won't work at all and you'd also lose your positional advantage at the same time.

I'm confused again. Didn't you just say that using j.214D at the end of that 1 charge combo would allow you to -keep- your advantage?

Or do you mean trying to follow up after the j.214D is what causes you to be in a bad place?

[BatousaiJ]

Yes, in most cases of artificially adding j.214D will make it so after you land at most the added damage you can get is 6C > 236236C as basically everything else will allow them to air tech immediately after hit which gives them a good opportunity to get out.

When I meant "keep your advantage" I meant positional as long as you wait for them to tech naturally as you'd already be on the ground in position waiting for them and can get one tap of 5D off while you're waiting.

The best way to showcase this would be in this way.

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > 2C > j.C > j.214D > 6CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214D |>| optional 6C > 236236C or 623C> j.214C (both options will result in positional advantage lose)

That's the precise scenario I'm speaking of, you're artificially injecting a second charge into a one charge combo to keep your positional advantage when you land but it's not an efficient use of charge as there are much better 2 charge combos that do more damage and give more meter while being about the same level of difficulty add to that you can't really follow up the j.214D at that point, it's rather clear why you would want to avoid this scenario.

[BatousaiJ]

Alright, I've been tinkering with some mugen combos of various levels and comparing the damage/positional advantage you get from just doing standard combos with the corresponding charge levels and ending it with a 236236C is often times better given the damage is very similar but at least you get more heat gain activating the DD at the end of the combo instead of the middle gimping meter gain for a time significantly.

I feel like the way Tsubaki's damage has changed along with how all high damage combos gravitate towards what you can do in the corner, a situation where you can use mugen efficiently over the alternatives are few and far between.

Here's a good example.

A corner two charge combo

5BB > 5CC > Mugen > 623D > j.214D > 236D > 214D > 22[D] > 5C > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [4378 damage]

5BB > 5CC > 22D > 6CC > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > 5CC > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B > 236236C [4812 damage]

Same charge use and meter use but more damage and meter gain off the 2nd much shorter combo.

There are a ton of these situations where it's just better not to use mugen at all and the only times I've seen this to be the contrary is during some mid-screen situations(not that big of a difference either) and 5 charge stock moments where you'll get enough meter to use 236236D at the end which is generally unrealistic.

Not to say that mugen is useless but I think it's use will be limited mostly to burst baiting and style points.

[Rhiya]

Bat, what about less prorating starters?

5bb>5cc>mugen was almost never worth it, even in CS.

Besides, that mugen combo would give you corner knockdown, while the super would put you back midscreen.

[BatousaiJ]

About the same kind of results.

We all know that 22D prorates fairly well on naked hit but given if you want to spend 2 charges while getting benefit of naked 22D hit, you have to activate mugen when you've only got 1 charge left.

For example...

Corner

22D > 6C > Mugen > 623D > j.214D > 214D > 2CC > IAD > j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [5059 damage 43 ish meter gain]

22D > 6CC > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > IAD > j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B > 236236C [5559 damage 47 meter gain]

500 Flat less damage is a lot and while the DD does push you back, you can get in their face before they tech just by dashing forward at that point so that's not really much of a factor. Without the super it's at around 4800 damage as well and that's with the best ender with positional advantage to boot which gives you time to get 1 charge or so while you wait for them to tech.

Now that I've more or less got the timing for IAD(around 80-90% now) shenanigans that 2nd combo I've listed there is my favorite option in that scenario.

Tsubaki's damage outside of D move continuation has improved so much the strict damage beneficial of using mugen has decreased. Most likely I'll personally be using mugen for style points and if I'm feeling frisky and going on a mix up rampage.

Now that you can cancel into D moves on block, hit or whiff, you can go off like a mad man on a mission when you've got mugen activated.

A fun fact that a lot of people don't seem to know is that did you know that j.236D > j.214D on multi-hit takes away a primer all while locking them up in the same place for a second or so leaving you to continue to break their primers or go for sneaky unblockable or ambigious IAD cross-up sets?

Setting the cpu to block everything and seeing what kind of mix up you can do with 5 charge mugen is actually pretty fun.

[Airk]

What about 100% heat Mugen combos with lower charge counts? I know you don't get a big whallop out of a 2 stock 236236D, but two charge is slightly better than 236236C. Are there combos that could end with that which would give a marked damage edge?

Also, yeah, Mugen for Mixup seems like a pretty effective use now that you can crazy spam D cancels. Something I didn't realize until I saw someone do it in a video is that you can actually D-cancel 236A/B/C slightly BEFORE it hits (Generally the last two active frames). Situationally useful for say, Hakumen players who like to counterattack your 236X moves.

[BatousaiJ]

A damage edge for 3-5 charges mostly but then again, we're spending 100 heat at that point instead of 50 so it'd better do more damage.

Like I've shown in the video, 4-5 charge mugen 100 heat combos are still the way to get the most damage out of Tsubaki. The problem is while we'll most likely have access to much more charge stock then before, having 100 heat saved up against a decent opponent is going to a tough sell.

[Airk]

Well, you don't strictly NEED 100% heat to START the combo, right? Though I guess since starting Mugen shuts down your heat gain for the next 3 seconds, you need to be pretty close, eh? Bah. Woulda been nice if they'd left that move off the heat cooldown timer.

[Spring_Raid]

Well, you don't strictly NEED 100% heat to START the combo, right? Though I guess since starting Mugen shuts down your heat gain for the next 3 seconds, you need to be pretty close, eh? Bah. Woulda been nice if they'd left that move off the heat cooldown timer.

Nope, you don't need 100%. I'd recommend using only 50% meter with at least 3 bars for Mugen combos and the other 50% for counter assault, to help get out of a pressure situation.

[BatousaiJ]

Been screwing around with some CH combos and working out some fancy 6C FC combos in the corner.

There's one using j.214D > j.D falling > dash j.C > 5B > 2CC > etc.

You can infact still do j.D falling shenanigans but its use has become quite limited due to j.214X without RC pushing back a significant amount.

Not really necessary or beneficial in any real significant way but it's a bit of eye candy.

Tsubaki's FC is still less useful than 5C CH in basically all scenarios though and given how slow the start up on 6C is to begin with, so bleh.

General option of CH hits-

5B > 6CC (faster, longer ranged)

5C > 6CC (slower, shorter but a good deal more powerful)

Also looked at the merits of going 5B > 3CC > RC > IAD combo instead of 5B > 6C but it turns out like this

Midscreen 1 Charge

5B CH > 6C > 214D > 22C > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236 B > 214B > 22B [3522 damage]

5C CH > 6C > 214D > 22C > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236 B > 214B > 22B [4110 damage]

Midscreen 50 heat

5B CH > 3CC > RC > 22C > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236 B > 214B > 22B [3205 damage]

Another good thing about 5B/5C > 6C > 214D option is that it allows you the option to cross the opponent over by dashing after 214D before you go for 2CC.

Other wise if you're in the corner it's generally better to go for j.214D to setup your combo for maximum efficiency.

Also, I've been messing around with corner pressure and forward roll tech trap pick up meaning after you knock down someone in the corner and they try to get out.

Most attacks will be able to pick up your opponent during forward rolls so you have to make them respect the fact that they're in the corner and whenever they try to roll out, they're getting hit with a pick up combo.

For example, if you pick them up with 5C as they're rolling you can simply do

Corner, no charge, no meter

5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 2CC > 22C> 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3491 damage]

Same combo works with our best overall poke 5B as well as 2A so make your opponent respect your corner options.

Also, I've figured out what seems to be a true unblockable setup for Tsubaki... but I'll save that for the next video some time in the future since I'll be needing fancy stuff for it.

[Akira-Shiro]

How much would this do in CS2 in the corner 22D>6cc>J.cc>214D>5c>2c>214D>2cc>J66>J.cc>5c>2cc>236D>2cc>J.c>J.cc>214D>3c>C~DD ?.?

Edited May 6, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[BatousaiJ]

Not much since it wouldn't connect.

I think either your notations are incorrect or your combo work is off.

Oh and before I forget, let me make a note of this combo's existence/viability.

Anywhere -

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 623C > j.214A > hjc j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214C [3223 damage]

Yes, we have a 3.2k damage combo without meters/charges anywhere in the screen off of a 5B starter.

We do that now.

The reason why you don't see pros use this combo is

A. Difficulty(try this combo when you can and you'll see what I mean)

B. Positional advantage

But still, given our current BnB does 500 less damage this one and gains less heat, it's a good combo to know.

Edited May 6, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[Akira-Shiro]

Wait how would this not work... it works in cs1 22d(Small wall bound)>6cc>J.cc(Both hits)>214D(Drive dive attack)>5c(to pick them up from falling animation)>2c(To give u enough hitstun)>214D(Knock them high in the air)>236D(when they fall back down)>2cc(To start the air combo)>j.c(then jump)>J.cc(both hits)>214D>3C(while they are sliding to pick them back up)>236236C (and a DD for the finish)

I use this combo all the time in CS1, and i alredy kno the effects of all her moves except J.214D ?.? did they change it

Edited May 7, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[Daedron]

It won't work because:

1. 5C does not pick up after j.214D

2. 3C can not be followed up by anything.

5CC does though, and then you can do 2C and do the rest of the combo, you can do 6C instead of the 3C and do the DD then.

So the combo will be: 22D - 6CC - j.CC - j.214D - 5C(w)C - 2C - 214D - 236D - 2CC - j.C - jc - j.CC - j.214D - 6C - 236236C.

This combo does 5664 damage.

You can also add a 5C before the 2CC after the 236D, then the combo does 5780, the timing for this is a lot stricter than a 2CC though.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention that this works on Ragna, I have no clue if it works on all characters since you can barely hit Ragna with the 5CC and 2C.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Daedron

[Akira-Shiro]

^-^ Thanks alot,,, i guess ill have to improvise when CS2 come out.

Well what about this 22D>214D>5c>2cc>IAD>j.c>J.cc>236D>6c>263C>2cc (optional)>J.c>J.c>J.cc>J.214D>6c>DD~C

Edited May 7, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[BatousaiJ]

I've found when doing combo works the key is to use any D move only once during the whole entire combo as using the same one twice will generally kill the hit stun combo ability making you unable to continue the hits while adding unnecessary repeat hit proration in the mix.

Also, adding extra D moves after you expand 2-3 charges in the corner adds little to the damage and is better saved unless you need that extra bit of damage for a kill combo.

As for the biggest annoyance in hitbox nonsense, that would be Jin and his sliding hitbox which makes it impossible for us to pick him up with a 5C as he is sliding after a 22C knockaway continuation in the corner.

You can pick him off OTG with 5CC whiff or 6C > 236B and etc but I'd recommend adding corner combos a little earlier and going straight 2CC > 236B instead of 2CC > 22C follow up.

He can't get hit by 236236C on corner slide either so you'd have to option for 6C > 236236C if hit stun allows.

[Daedron]

Yeah, I was actually surprised when I set Jin as a training dummy. I haven't done all my combos against every char, but I have a feeling Jin is the only one with a hitbox that stuffs some of our combos ;_;

[STenSatsu]

Most of the D moves have repeat proration iirc which is why you only want one of each.

[Airk]

BatousaiJ - any recommendations for basic combos to start with for those of us who are:

A) Just getting BBCS2 today

B) Still pretty sad, fumbly beginners?

i.e. Looking for basic easy BnBs for now. Ya know. One-Hat combos.

[BatousaiJ]

I shall be updating the video tutorial thread with difficulty guideline and possibly some easier combos within the next day or two so I'm going to have you refer to those when they get posted.

[Rhiya]

It seems like the 5bb>2bb>5cc>6bb>special shit would be level zero again

[Airk]

It seems like the 5bb>2bb>5cc>6bb>special shit would be level zero again

Under what circumstances does the 6BB at the end connect? I was only able to land it sometimes, but maybe I just suck (very real possibility)

Under what circumstances is it advisable to use it? Is it always a damage improvement over 5BB>2BB>6CC>stuff?

[BatousaiJ]

6BB only works as red beat combo when the enemy is hit while crouching.

It's use is generally as one of the general two ways to continue after 6A or if you catch an enemy while he's crouching with a normal. It's damage and benefit is comparable to the 623C > j.214A > 2CC ender, especially in the corner with no charge.

Figured this combo out earlier, let me document it here since it's actually quite a great 5C CH combo in the corner. Easy difficulty and quite a nice sum of damage/meter gain. I do believe I've found my goto 5C CH combo in the corner w/ 3 charges.

3 Charges, Corner-

5C CH > 6CC > 623D(full hits) > j.214D > 5CC > 22D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [5638 damage, 54 meter gain]

[Airk]

I am at once impressed and intimidated. Remembering all this stuff is going to be tricky.