Appledash- Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Speed is a relative thing. Sure he's pretty fast for a grappler, but Wald is a turtle compared to much of the game's cast (like Hyde, who has pretty basic movement) since everyone this game runs really fast. However I think it's pretty cool of them to still give him access to all the basic movement tools (unlike tager who can't double jump...) He moves about the same speed as vatista? Though laser loli has better air movement I think. Anyone else besides Akatsuki have a step dash? Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
D.R.F. Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Speed is a relative thing. Sure he's pretty fast for a grappler, but Wald is a turtle compared to much of the game's cast (like Hyde, who has pretty basic movement) since everyone this game runs really fast. However I think it's pretty cool of them to still give him access to all the basic movement tools (unlike tager who can't double jump...) He moves about the same speed as vatista? Though laser loli has better air movement I think. Anyone else besides Akatsuki have a step dash? Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk Wald doesnt even have the most health in the game, yuzu and gordeau have like 300 and 800 more respectively I think. Its crazy
Golermecio Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 I hope all grapplers are forever bottom tier. No grappler is fine too. Really, I think there are more ppl who hate grapplers that people who play them, haha. Just joking about not having grapplers. Serious about tier though haha.
D.R.F. Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 I hope all grapplers are forever bottom tier. No grappler is fine too. Really, I think there are more ppl who hate grapplers that people who play them, haha. Just joking about not having grapplers. Serious about tier though haha. Bleh. Cuz of people like this that potemkin was given the axe on shit like heat knuckle and 2S (can still win with him). Nonetheless I believe it is okay for a grappler to be good (like any character). However, I dont think they should have too much honest shit, and should still be forced to play on reads, if that makes any since
Betto Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Wald doesnt even have the most health in the game, yuzu and gordeau have like 300 and 800 more respectively I think. Its crazy  Wrong, Wald does have the most health. Yuzu and Gordeau have 9800 and 10500 respectively. Wald has 10800. This is coming from that Vatista wiki that was mentioned a couple pages back. http://i.imgur.com/G3Ahsex.png  On a side note, after watching an 8k damage Vatista combo against Seth, Seth does have about 8100 HP... Even that's lower than Hilda's.
D.R.F. Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 ? :0 I remember reading it as 13000. Must have been incorrect data
Betto Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 ? :0 I remember reading it as 13000. Must have been incorrect data  You're probably thinking vanilla UNiB values. Gordeau and Yuzu did have higher HP than Wald at that time.
White Man Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 No one likes to fight a grappler unless they're a masochist, regardless of how good or bad they are, you feel bad getting command grabbed. And that fear of conventional defense not working because of command throws frustrates people, because the mix up game is all fucked up now. You can block a low, block an overhead, break a throw, but panic sets in when you realize that this nigga has throws you can't break, and very few of them have start up that you can react to. So you're forced to play like a scrub because unless you know the player you have no real idea when they're going to go for the circles.  I fail to see how being forced to adjust your play style against certain opponents is a bad thing, frankly. Playing your character the same way every single match and getting freaked out in the rare instance you have to do something different... That seems like a more legit example of a scrub mentality from where I sit. 99% of the time, more play variety = better game. Waldstein looks really interesting because he does introduce some variety into a game where it looks like you can get await with using the same tactics against the majority of the cast. I don't normally play grapplers, but I could see myself picking up Wald as a second or third to keep things fresh.
Surf Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 How did you even figure that from his post though. It's his opinion but it just looks like you took it the wrong way. What he stated is what usually happens. People tend to act the fuck up against grapplers/characters with strong command grabs because it's something you cant particularly react to. And they sure as hell aren't going to sit there and wait for the inevitable to happen. So they panic and try to get away. Grapplers are usually just a special case matchup wise. It's nothing new. Like he said, unless you know the player and their tendencies then its RPS. And who the hell likes that
White Man Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 People tend to act the fuck up against grapplers/characters with strong command grabs because it's something you cant particularly react to. And they sure as hell aren't going to sit there and wait for the inevitable to happen. So they panic and try to get away.  The goal then becomes avoiding being placed in a situation where you're able to be grabbed. Nothing random or unfair about that. I don't see why it's a bad thing that you would have to adjust your approach to fight an opponent with a different skill set from the rest of the cast (unless the character is broken, which as others have noted, usually isn't the case with grapplers). And how is employing a keep-away strategy equal to panicking? If you're panicking, that means you've probably already made a mistake. I read Skye's post as an argument why grapplers shouldn't be in 2D fighters because they're "not fun" to fight against, which I think is silly. If that's not the point he was attempting to make, then I misinterpreted something somewhere. My bad.
Surf Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 He never said they shouldnt be in the games, just that they're hard to balance. I guess what your talking about is the matchup as a whole and Skye was just mentioning how it is when a grappler is actually pressuring you. I never said panicking was playing the keep away game. I shouldve been specific but I mainly meant panicking as in mashing, backdashing frantically, upbacking, guessing, etc. when a grappler is pressuring you. It's common. But usually blatant actions like that show the lack of matchup exp. And it's also common that people don't truly take the time out to learn the grappler matchups other than "keep them out". Once they've failed at that and are under pressure they go apeshit because constant RPS into RPS isn't something they want to go through. And they've never take the time out to learn how to combat the grapplers options because all they can visualize in they're mind is butter churning once they get caught blocking. Â I think actually "enjoying" fighting a grappler has to do with the character you play as. While yes i agree with just because you don't like a matchup doesn't mean its stupid/unfair/random. I find neutral against grapplers fun because it's all about the spacing game, which I love. But I DONT enjoy being caught in a vortex. I mean I dont with any character but with them it's a lot more evident because like I mentioned before they have an element I cant react to. In the end it's not like a disagree with you. Like I mentioned I think you just misinterpreted Skyes message as him just saying "grapplers are dumb." We should probably start talking under night again though before the cops come
Keo-bas Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 unless you know the player and their tendencies then its RPS. And who the hell likes that I like this, inf act most of my favorite games have this element. Isn't this also one of the high points of KI?
Tong Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Rock, Paper, Scissors. Â And it's not like Waldstein totally wrecks the competition or is dominating. But perhaps I'm just watching the wrong players.
kazukifafner Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Well, idk if "dominating" is the right word to use, but Waldenstein and Gordeau are pretty firmly the best characters in the game.
LordSpectreX Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Woah Woah Woah. Let's back up a little. Now I do hate the way many grapplers are designed. Most of the time, they feel like completely crappy characters who can just capitalize against mistakes with guessing games. Fighting them usually comes down to playing as dry and lame as possible, and it's not really very fun.   #1: To my knowledge, he only has one anti air command grab. And it's a super. This cuts off a large portion of possible RPS gameplay. For all we know, you can DP or perform safe actions like backdash during the superflash. It's not used that often.  #2: His Command Grabs do pretty mediocre damage for grabs. They do just about over 2k damage. It's not much, considering even regular throws in this game do an average of 1.5k, along with the average meterless combo doing between 2.5-3.5k.  #3: He has to spend meter to use an invincible command grab of any kind.  #4: His oki off command grabs is rather pitiful, especially his standard ones.  His capabilities as a grappler aren't THAT strong. The reason why Waldstein is actually strong is because of high stats, being able to keep up with most of the cast mobility wise, and good, large, space controlling moves. Oh, and being able to cut projectiles.  To be honest, he plays a lot more like SF4 Zangief with Ultra 2 rather than Tager, Kira, Tomoka or a lot of other typical anime grapplers.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zHSc0GJmlE  An example of Fuse Master playing. Notice how little grabs actually come into play on oki. His style is much more Blockstring>Throw than just Throw>Guessing Game>Anti-Air Throw>Guessing Game>Block blah blah like the "anime grappler" archetype usually demands.  Also, this is a French Bread game. As such. Backdashes are STROOOOOOOOONG. They're a good option vs midscreen grab shenanigans. We'll mostly have to get the game and see. But I'm fairly certain that Waldstein is not UNIEL's Tager, that's for sure.
Surf Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Well it looks like the conversation went from Wald specifically to grapplers in general. I do agree with the points you made. Like I've said before, Wald's cool. Tager on the other hand is constructed terribly. But whats really to blame are the chimpanzees Arc hired to make and balance their characters.Â
Yuhoke Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Preordered my copy from play-asia today! Now to play the waiting game. If there's any online Euro warriors, feel free to add me on PSN.
thiz Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm somewhat new to these jpn psn shenanigans, if I see this right, psn version will be priced at 5800Yen and will only be available for purchase at the time its released, they dont have the preorder thing on psn (I guess its not even listed until the moment they release it), is that all correct? Just want to know stuff ahead of time to have it planned out :3
dm89132 Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm somewhat new to these jpn psn shenanigans, if I see this right, psn version will be priced at 5800Yen and will only be available for purchase at the time its released, they dont have the preorder thing on psn, is that all correct? I'm a pretty nervous guy and just want to know stuff ahead of time to have it planned out :3 As far as I can tell the JP store doesn't have any pre-orders at all, yeah. I've also pre-ordered from Play-Asia, but my Love Max is taking so long to arrive I'll probably get it digitally instead/as well. Buying it on release date should work fine in any case.
Keo-bas Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 wait UNIB have good back dashes? how I long for game where back dash were pretty darn good defensive option. outside of  melty and few other games. Most game with back dash felt underwhelming weak. Not that I need back dash to be potemkin/Justice level of good but decent in none meaty situations.
Hecatom Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 Man, this thread has suddenly become scrub central, SMDH
psycofang2 Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Huh so is play Asia a safe bet? No word on digital release? How reliable is PA?
SolxBaiken Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Play Asia is alright, I think there are better importers [myself preferring AmiAmi or Nippon Yasan] but there is a digital version which has been confirmed alongside retail but at a significant price difference [5.8k yen as opposed to 6,264 yen, plus factor in no additional shipping cost!]. Â Personally, since there's no special edition or extra goodies, I'll happily settle for just digital on this game [especially on the off, but likely chance, we may get a domestic release down the ways]
Koopa_Klawz Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Huh so is play Asia a safe bet? No word on digital release? How reliable is PA? Well I only used it once but I didn't have any problems with it (just don't pick air economy bubble for shipping if you don't want to wait long).
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