[CSE] Noel Vermillion Critique And Self-Improvement Thread

[LunaKage]

When your back is to the corner and you hit a 4D you can do:

4D > d.6A > d.6C > d.214D > 66A > 6C(2) > 66C > j.D > d.4D > d.236D > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D(last hit only)

and if you get a fatal 4D you can do:

4D Fatal > d.6C > d.214D > 66A > 6C(2) > 66C > j.D > d.4D > d.236D > 6C > 22C~66 > 6C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D(Last hit only).

Note however that the fatal variation cannot end in fenrir as is, but you can cut the combo short by doing this as the ender: j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > Fenrir

[Kuraudou]

Well, new to the Forums and all, but I've been lurking for the most part. I am ready to receive the harsh criticism. So, I got a couple videos.

Kuraudou vs kurubusi2000

Kuraudou vs FATBONG

Personally, I rather deal with the latter since I tend to get some serious trouble with Tager. Meeeh.

[HexaNoid]

Tager

• 0:10 - 6A > No hitconfirm
  
• 0:48 - Airthrow > 2B > OpticC?
  
• 0:56 - You can 4D through Spark Bolt
  
• 2:49 - ABC can be followed up with RC for a combo
  
  
  Plat
  
  
  • 0:29 - Avoid 5B > 5C > 3C on standing (punished at 1:52)
    
  • 1:23/37 - Sub-optimal combos
    

  Not really much I can say about the Tager match-up. Your play-style was appropriate - keeping you distance and trying to catch him off guard - although I feel you could have been slightly more assertive; there's nothing wrong with trying to pseudo-zone Tager as Noel, but she is still a rushdown character so you'll have to find the right time to go in and deal some damage.

  I think the same can be said for the Platinum match-up to a degree. While you didn't seem to respect (or fear) the Platinum player nearly as much as the Tager and consequently made more approaches, you didn't capitalise on the mistakes the Platinum made either due to poor hit-confirming or not knowing the best combos as pointed out in the list.

  In general, I think what combos you do know were executed fairly well, but there were instances (specifically against Tager) where you slipped up and dropped a combo or just didn't follow up because you didn't think you'd the land the hit I'm assuming. I would suggest going through the combo thread which (although it is unfinished) has plenty for you to work with. Then once you're more confident with Noel's more advanced combos, you can move on to learning some blockstrings and mix-up which your game seemed to lacked.

Edited May 21, 2012 by HexaNoid

[LunaKage]

Well, new to the Forums and all, but I've been lurking for the most part. I am ready to receive the harsh criticism. So, I got a couple videos.

Kuraudou vs kurubusi2000

Kuraudou vs FATBONG

Personally, I rather deal with the latter since I tend to get some serious trouble with Tager. Meeeh.

1st Video:

- Right off the bat I notice you use 4D way too much.

- Instead of autopiloting 4D > d.6C, instead use 4D > d.5C or 4D > d.6A, these will combo even on normal hit, and will still combo into d.6C. Also on air hit 4D, the d.6A or d.5C will whiff, and the d.6C will combo with your opponent low enough to the ground, to allow you to use Spring Raid and follow it up with 6C on Fatal.

- I'm not sure if that wakeup super was supposed to be used as a reversal or not, but what you ended up doing was actually a legit thing. On wakeup it can punish a bunch of moves on recovery that Noel's normal moves cannot, so keep that in mind if you notice your opponent whiffed a move as you woke-up.

- When you landed the backthrow in the corner you should have done: Backthrow > 22C~66 > 66C > 4D > d.6C > 214D > 446C(2) > 6C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D, but on Plat it's a little harder, so an easier combo would be: Backthrow > 22C~66 > 66C > 4D > d.6C > Delay 236D > 66C(2) > 6C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d..5C > d.236D

- Don't autopilot your blockstrings, ESPECIALLY into drive, you don't want to be pushing drive if you know you're opponent is blocking.

- 5C > 3C only works on a crouching opponent, or on a CH 5C, but you hit the Plat with a standing hit 2A and went into a crouching confirm, which doesn't work at all on standing, and against a good player a blocked 3C will get you murdered.

- Seriously, you shouldn't use 4D that much, it doesn't look like you're even thinking about it, just "Oh shit, he's running towards me, 4D!!!"

- The confirm you used to end the match seemed a bit sloppy, but maybe that's just because it's not the one I use lol, but regardless, you used it to go for the kill, so good shit on that.

2nd Video

- Holy shit, this Tager is doing CT combos, GET HYPE!

- If Tager is just jumping around like an idiot and not bothering to actually walk, then you can just wait until you both reach the other corner, then run under him, repeat this until he rage-quits or actually learns to not do that.

- You messed up on the airgrab confirm, but don't feel bad, a lot of Noels go through the "Fuck my 2B > 6C turned into 2B > 236C and now I'm eating a combo" when they are still starting out.

- 4D is an even worse idea to use often against Tager, so remember to ease up on abusing it so much.

- If you find yourself in a drive string with Tager blocking, find a safe way out asap, Tager rapes drives, so it's usually a good idea to 4D > reload to create a safe distance, or 4D > 214D to bait a Tager trying to punish 4D > reload.

- Off of a midscreen grab you want to use: Grab > 214A > 2B > 6C > 22C~66 > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6B > d.6C > d.5B > d.5C > d.236D

- 4D whiff > 4D whiff... this is only good if you're trolling, I should know :3 (But you should never do this in serious play)

- I notice you were already using the whole "Run under a Tager who jumps like an idiot approach", but it seemed like it took you awhile to start doing it lol

- Near the end you let this Tager know how badly he was playing the matchup, and I applaud you for that.

[Kuraudou]

Platinum Fight:

I can definitely admit to using 4D too much, but I don't try to spam it uselessly(even though it appears that way). I do have knowledge of combos, but it's very little compared to what can be obtained maximized. However, most of the time, I end up going for something I know I can do without fail so I don't end up getting punished midway. The reversal Supers I do are intentional, at least against people I get the vibe that don't try to bait me(Since not many moves can punish upon wakeup as LunaKage said). I'll have to practice combo suggestions since everything I do is sadly out of habit now. While I'm not proud of it, it goes for those bad block-strings too. I even do have a tendency to 4B > 3C on no hit confirm, but I'll break out of that soon enough.

Tager:

Hex, I don't like playing footsies with Tager at all. Sure everyone knows it's the smart thing to do, but you're right. I did drop combos mainly because I didn't believe my next hit would make it through. Though I can also admit to being slow to react on Hit Confirms(This shows later on Mid screen grab, but no follow ups). As LunaKage pointed out, the Air Grab > 2B > 236C was a mistake(Hate controllers for this, makes it annoying for some corner combos). Also, I didn't know 4D could go through Spark Bolt(Makes sense though), but I seem to have poor execution on Invul. Frames when it comes to 4D most of the time. I seem to have more faith in anticipating Spark Bolt since it isn't an AI using it. Lol. I been trying to find ways to punish Jumping Tagers(thought 6A would help with that, but lesson learned on other matches). So I just deemed to finally start running to create more space.

All in all, I'll take note of the advice and try to practice more in training. Especially since I got my Stick with me now(Already had some prior experience with it, just did some recent moving).

[Raptor]

Finally managed to find the vids from my last tourney and would like some feedback. Apologies for the stream format but it's all I could find.

http://www.twitch.tv/xiei/b/317998703

00:35:00 vs. Rachel

01:29:00 face my true self

02:52:00 vs. Arakune

03:00:30 vs. Tao

03:29:00 vs. Platinum

[LunaKage]

Finally managed to find the vids from my last tourney and would like some feedback. Apologies for the stream format but it's all I could find.

http://www.twitch.tv/xiei/b/317998703

00:35:00 vs. Rachel

01:29:00 face my true self

02:52:00 vs. Arakune

03:00:30 vs. Tao

03:29:00 vs. Platinum

Vs Rachel:

- So far so good, aside from a bit of nervousness and execution errors you're playing relatively solid.

- You're way too predictable with your strings. Noel isn't truly scary unless she's taking advantage of her staggers, without stagger strings you're just gonna get your mixup blocked for free.

- You need to work on your Crossunder 6C in corner combos, I saw you drop that three times in a row, you're giving up a lot of advantage by dropping those key corner combos.

Vs. Noel

- Once again you're just autopiloting your blockstrings, this will get you in trouble against players that know how to deal with it.

- Alpha gets mad brownie points for starting off the round with a TK RB, but it's really not a good idea :3

- He keeps trying to do the 6D variation of his combos, which isn't always good after a silencer string, since as you see, he keeps accidentally crossing under and missing his combos, keep this in mind.

- Alphas combos may not have been the ones I'd do, but he made all the right decisions. I feel like in this match you were just too nervous and took risks that wouldn't normally be taken if you were in a more calm state of mind, this is the whole meta-game of the Noel mirror though, so don't feel too bad, just try your best to rectify this.

Vs. Arakune

- Your midscreen combo ender should be j.D > d.6B > d.6C > d.5D > d.5C > d.236D, becayse the d.5B version doesn't work on Arakune.

- You got major balls Counter Assaulting Arakune while in Curse and actually rushing in with an A move, in this case it payed off though.

- Yo did he just combo one of his curse bugs off of a Green Burst and actually KO you? I didn't think that was possible.

- You need to j.A more, 6A is really dangerous to throw out in this matchup since Arakune has such an easy time punishing it on Whiff.

- Yo I wont lie I popped off when you hit that j.4D reset. I never use those against good players, but it does work on occasion, and it picked you up the win, so good shit :3

Vs Tao:

- First off, you had the Tao blocking, and you backed off. NEVER back off when you have the offense, you can't afford to in this matchup.

- And that is exactly why you never back off, Tao rapes Noel in neutral.

- When you hit that Muzzle Filter, I felt a burst coming, to bait a burst after hitting a Muzzle Filter(Or an air grab), just hit 2B and then recover and block, you will recover in time to IB the burst and can punish with a 66 5A combo.

- Nice hit confirm on the air hit 5B into an air combo.

Vs. Plat:

- I noticed you were starting to try and stagger, good stuff.

- You got CDT out of your Overhead attempted, I THINK that within the frames you were in you could have Barrier cancelled your 6B, but maybe not. Just to be safe though, whenever I see a Super's Super Flash, I always Barrier block, just in case it would save me.

- I also notice you almost never use your drives as a reversal. Xie was rushing you down without fear, which is what drives are really meant to do, even if you don't get to do 5k fatal combos, if your opponent knows you're willing to 4D him for big damage the fear is there, and suddenly they find themselves being much more careful on approach, which will allow you to gain back your advantage in certain situations even without using drive all because they are aware of it and are afraid of it.

- Also 4D is really good against Plat, just be careful not to abuse 4D, using it and abusing it are two different things.

- For corner combo enders, you wanna use j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > Reload/d.236D

- You did good, if you would have handled that last round better you may have even been able to pull out a win, but you cracked under the pressure. Don't feel bad though, Xie is one of our best American Plat players, so there's no shame in losing to him.

[Iza]

anyone like to further critique me or am i asking too much?

Vs Tao then Bang

Vs Makoto

[LunaKage]

anyone like to further critique me or am i asking too much?

Vs Tao then Bang

Vs Makoto

First Match:

- YOU DIDN'T MAP TAUNT QQ

- Your first corner combo off of 4D was almost perfect, but before you did the 236A, you should have done Silencer, it would have added quite a bit of damage to the combo.

- While I can understand your desire to do as much damage to Tao as possible in one combo, you really should have saved that meter for other stuff instead of using Fenrir at the end. Normally you should only do a Fenrir at the end of a combo if it will kill, or bring them so close to death that a simple poke will kill them. Because think of it this way: 2A > 2B > 2C > 5C does more damage on it's own than a Fenrir does when added to a combo.

- This Tao doesn't seem to know the matchup well, they're trying to hard to hit you, and not playing the runaway game enough. In the same respect you're playing too much of a risky game in order to catch up to them. You should focus more on Super Jump Forward while holding Air Barrier to block, this will prevent Tao from tagging you with an attack to easily, you're IAD forward too much, which leaves you WIDE open for a Tao Drive.

- At the end of the match you showed Tao why they can't play the rushdown game, because 4D/2D kills most of her normals, you Fatal'd the Tao 3 times in a row, leading them to burst twice. Take note of this, but remember don't abuse it, since just like every other character, Tao can bait drives too.

Second Match:

- Shoutouts to a stick player needing to use a Macro for his Burst.

- This Bang seems to love Jumping, remember that 2C > 3C on block is a jump trap. It's really risky though, so it's best to use when you have meter to make it safe, or if you're willing to take that risk.

- A nice OS I like to use against Bang is 5A > 2B or 2A > 2B, this puts you at 0 on block, which allows you to stagger, and it shuts down most of his drive options, including his 2D.

- Don't be so predictable with 4D, every time you were teching in the corner you did wakeup 4D, that's not gonna fly against an opponent who knows how to beat it.

- When running up to your opponent on wakeup, remember to use 5A to cover Rolls and quick get-up. If you would have been covering his wakeup options during that first round, he would have gotten hit, allowing you to win the round.

- Remember how I said this guy loves to jump? Well keep that in mind when he has you in the corner. A Jump happy opponent allows you to just dash right under them, due to Noel's running hitbox being so low, your chances of getting hit are almost none if you're opponent is at the peak of their jump.

- Don't use 5B to end a stagger, it's so bad for that. Your stagger points are 5A, 2A, 2B and 2C.

Third Match:

- Don't be afraid of Makoto. You got blown up by alot of her 214A tricks, this can be beaten by poking, everytime.

- Remember you can run out of the corner too, you're getting exposed so hard by people calling out your IADs.

- Yeah that match ended so fast @w@ You need to learn to be more patient, Makoto isn't that hard to deal with in this game, most of her stuff is negative and most of her tricks are beaten by just poking. She got you nervous and caused you to do things too hasty, which forced you to play her game.

[M.D. Orona]

I'm just gonna drop these here for whoever feels like playing the critic. A second opinion on what I'm doing wrong in this game is long past overdue.

1st match vs Bang

2nd match vs Bang

1st match vs Hazama

2nd match vs Hazama

And I know I suck at reacting to Haz's overhead. It only shows like 12 times in those two videos alone. :c

[Arcknight]

Well Doc I have problems with both of those matches myself. But things I notice: You still use j.D a lot. That is pretty unsafe most of the time. Also, you should RC stuff more often if you think it will get blocked. A lot of people will block a drive ender and then go for a punish. You can RC that and mix them up again or get out back to neutral if you wish. That meter is there to be used!

Also, that overhead is like one of the very best in the game(unless it was nerfed). It is very hard to react to. It is almost better to stand if you know that 50/50 is on the way. ALTHOUGH, if you don't get CH by it he won't be able to do much damage to you.

Anyways I have to run. Sorry I can't offer much more advice.

[M.D. Orona]

You are right though. RC needs to be a permanent part of my game. I think I had the gist of it at ECT then proceeded to forget about it again.

As for the j.D overuse, I should do something about that. Not sure what though. It's not like Noel's air normals are very good.

[Litherain-XIII]

yea but j.d certaintly not the best either. i prefer j.a overall but j.b has its uses sometimes.

[Arcknight]

I personally enjoy j.C the most. j.B in its current crappy hitbox state is....depressing.

Nothing is more enjoyable than ending a drive string with a blocked Bloom Trigger. If you see them stand up, RC that shit into 3C. Okay you shouldn't always do something drastic like that but it's a thought. I have caught a lot of people with it. Then again I am pretty terrible too so maybe no one expects that lol.

[Litherain-XIII]

lol well something i tried alot that has worked alot is staggering and into early mix ups and throwing this in relatively early 5A > 2B > 6C > RC > 6B. this seems to be pretty consistent since most would think noel is gonna go 6c > 2c > 5c.... etc so they most likely would be blocking low. Just thought id throw that out there lol

[SkyKing]

lol well something i tried alot that has worked alot is staggering and into early mix ups and throwing this in relatively early 5A > 2B > 6C > RC > 6B. this seems to be pretty consistent since most would think noel is gonna go 6c > 2c > 5c.... etc so they most likely would be blocking low. Just thought id throw that out there lol

I find it hilarious when you start a match by doing a 5A/2A > 6B string. Since it's only the beginning of the match, people tend to be respectful and go for the safest defense, which is prime-time to open up with an overhead. Kinda throws them for a loop too, since it's not a typical "feeling out" type of thing to do.

Also, M.D., I see you tend to end your drive strings in AT, which might be out of habit. You should vary your drive options when you do get an incorrect read and see if you can react accordingly depending on the situation you have. Sometimes, even just forcing yourself to stop be just letting her reload can surprise your opponent since they tend to look for Noel to continue with the string or end it with OB or AT. Also, I think you should just finish the combo in the corner rather than dropping it at the d.5C. It's just about the same positioning and you tack on a bit more damage.

[M.D. Orona]

Those d.5C's drops were actually unintentional. Usually from trying to Fenrir and somehow messing up the input.

I'm rusty and trying to remember what decent execution is, but my playstyle always seems to be an issue. Rust or not, I tend to fail at securing a match point (meaning I can win 1 round against a good player, but usually not the match), which is why I was looking for a second opinion to begin with.

The advice so far is pretty good, I just have to actually practice and apply it.

And @Arc, if they're standing after a blocked BT, wouldn't it be possible, and safer, to RC then microdash/dash into 2B > 6A > 6C > Stuff? Or is the blockstun not long enough to close the distance?

[Arcknight]

Well Doc I am not terribly sure about that. I usually go for riskier stuff so I cannot say I have actually tried that. I just like to make people panic I guess. Depending on spacing, you should be able to RC the first hit of Bloom Trigger and make that string work out. I know after the second hit they are usually too far away for something like that. If I get a chance to try it out I will let you know. But you know me I play stupid as hell to begin with.

Looking at the wiki frame data for Bloom Trigger has -13 for frame advantage. Not bad but not super great either. I think the extra spacing is what makes it relatively safe. It is unclear what the first hit yields by itself, however. Maybe the author of the wiki could help us out with that one. /nudge

Edited June 30, 2012 by Arcknight

[Litherain-XIII]

Tested it and the hitstun off BT(1) is long enough to follow up on it with 2B as long as you are in the same range as maybe a ragna 5A or closer. the opponent cant mash a dp or DD out of the hitstun of BT(1) i checked so thats good. in particular against bang he cant mash a D guardpoint after BT touches him so its gapless pretty much unles he uses a D before the BT(1) initially comes out so look out for that. also tested against tager and he cant mash a 360 or 720 out of it as well. but the thing is they can still block the RC > 2B follow up but by then they may feel itchy for a dp or super should they happen to block the follow up. as for the block stun of BT(1) if you ask me the frame advantage feels more like a +1 on block wen i compared the 2A blockstun and then a 2C blockstun then a 2C(1) RC and 2C(2) RC to see if they are any differences. i noticed that the levels of the atks are playing a part of the blockstun. 2A has lv1, 2C has lv3, and BT is lv4. when i used a 2C its block stun lasted slightly longer than a 2A both are +1 on block but its because of their levels. that would explain why BT(1) feels gapless when RC afterwards when attempting a 2B follow up. i honestly believe BT(2) the blowback hit is the actual -13 they are refering to in the frame data. otherwise i assume BT(1) is perhaps +1 on block or it feels that way.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Litherain-XIII

[LunaKage]

I like to RC BT(1) > 66B

It's not air tight obviously, but your opponents are usually so focused on blocking the second hit of BT that they don't register what's going on in time.

If you just wanna continue the block string without much risk, I'm sure a microdash 5A would work just fine.

[Litherain-XIII]

wat luna said lol XD

[neojammerzx]

How do you usually end your combos in the corner? (how do you setup for a good corner game?)

My thoughts:

1.) Drop the combo (Drive STUFF > BT or Fenrir) and instead do a j.5D reload

1.1. option to do 2A if they roll forward or back which will catch them for a 2A > 6C > stuff reset

1.2. if 2A whiffs after a neutral tech, proceed to grab

1.3. is there another option if 2A whiffs on neutral tech? 2C perhaps?

2.) After a BT or Fenrir, go for j.4D

2.1 option to fake a j.5D after a 6C2 wall bounce and proceed to j.4D

3.) Which on is a better frame trap setup (i think this depends on the combo performed doesn't it?) after a BT in the corner? -- 2A > 6C or 5A > 6C

[Alpha152]

Something I do a lot now is BT then IAD safe jump j.C to bait reversals into various things (2B, 6B, 5A stagger). If I don't think they'll reversal then I do IAD j.C > d.6B or confirm the j.C into 6A etc. Another set-up I love to use is IAD > 2B, that Jin tech is too strong :3 Another nice thing about using IAD after BT, if they delay their neutral tech and you dash 2A after the IAD you can get a cross-under and if they neutral tech quickly you'll still end up with a meaty 5A or something.

[Litherain-XIII]

Something I do a lot now is BT then IAD safe jump j.C to bait reversals into various things (2B, 6B, 5A stagger). If I don't think they'll reversal then I do IAD j.C > d.6B or confirm the j.C into 6A etc. Another set-up I love to use is IAD > 2B, that Jin tech is too strong :3 Another nice thing about using IAD after BT, if they delay their neutral tech and you dash 2A after the IAD you can get a cross-under and if they neutral tech quickly you'll still end up with a meaty 5A or something.

Pretty interesting... ill have to play around with your methods and see wat i can get out of it :3 maybe i can set up some of my ideas around it

[Arcknight]

Hey thanks for testing that out Litherain. I really appreciate the breakdown of that. And like Luna said: you can usually get in for free after you RC BT(1) since people are almost always expecting a safe ending from Noel's pressure from BT(2).

I used something similar the other night when we netplayed(after you left), except I RC'd BT(1) since I knew the second hit wouldn't kill Doc anyways. I figured what the hell let's keep pressure up. (that night was terrible since the TV I was using hated blazblue)