[CS2] Noel vs. Tsubaki

[AcoTan]

Matchup Ranking: 4/6 Tsubaki

Recommended Playstyle: Rush Down

You do not want give Tsubaki a chance to charge. Charge = Damage. Also, her block strings and mix-ups are dangerous. You don't have a good reversal, so don't give her momentum.

General Strategy:

Once again, do not let Tsubaki get momentum on you. Prevent her from charging. Don't get overzealous with your drives, she does have a DP after all. She can break out easily if she is blocking your drive chain. In addition, her follow-up normals can sometimes beat your invul frames (ex: Tsubaki's 5B whiffs during Noel's 5D, but 5BB hits before 5D does). Stick to your normals, and stay unpredictable. She lost most of her projectile invincibility, not that most of Noel's attacks are real projectiles.

Your Best Tools(For This Matchup):

6A - Your main anti-air. Tsubaki has a lot of angles of entry, especially with jump cancelable normals and aerial specials (j.214X). Usual method for shutting down air entry.

5B/5C - Used for spacing. Some cases, if Tsubaki's normals hit at max range, the followups may whiff. If your opponent isn't good at hit confirming, they will tend to mash out the followups instead of canceling into 22A at 5B max range. Tsubaki's normals range are actually not that long, outside of her 5B. So use these to keep her out of her comfort zone. A counterhit will lead to a tasty 3C.

2D - 2D always good to jump some of her normals and specials for some massive damage. Be careful when you throw it out though. Tsubaki can 5B or easily gatling into 2C which stuffs 2D, no problem. 5D isn't as good to throw out against Tsubaki because of the change in invulnerable frames. Best used if you know Tsubaki is going to throw out a 6A or 6B. It can also beat 236X series with the right spacing, but don't try to go for that.

Optic Barrel - Buff to Optic Barrel's speed is very useful. Very good in keeping Tsubaki players scared to charge or at least slows them down. Using it after she knocks you down to prevent her from stocking as many charges as could have. Closest to zoning we will ever get, but watch out for her 236X attacks. They outspeed your OB.

Has A DP?: Yes. A and D both have invincibility frames. Her DP's count as projectiles (except D version) and hits in front of her. Also noted, Tsubaki's 214X have different upper/head invincibility, based on input. She can use her DP to end a Drive blockstring.

Has A DP With Heat?: Not too different from dealing with her normal DP. She can special cancel her DPs into other stuff for combos, so she doesn't really need to use heat in most cases. Other than that, her 236236C/D has pretty good invincibility on startup.

On Defense

Noel’s best defence against Tsubaki will typically be a good offence, but when you are caught in Tsubaki’s block-strings there are few things you should be aware of. Besides her 2A and 5B, all of Tsubaki’s normals are unsafe on block. However, she does have legitimate high/low mix-up with 6A/B which is her overhead and low respectively. It can be quite difficult to differentiate between the two since they look fairly alike, but knowing which is which will be important for more than just knowing where to block. Tsubaki’s 6B can be beaten with a 2D if she uses it in a block-string, but her 6A can beat us out of it; learning to react to her 6B with 2D will be really useful in this match-up. Also, Tsubaki is a rushdown character too, so she’ll want to be close to you as well; smart use of 4D can beat out her a lot of her approaches and lead into big damage.

On Offense

Approaching Tsubaki can be quite a difficult thing to do with the tools she has; 2C has godly anti-air properties that’ll stop almost any aerial approach and 5B can stuff a lot of Noel’s ground approaches with its excellent range. 2D should be used sparingly since both her 5B and 2C can deal with these easily, but learning when and where to throw it out will be crucial. Noel should typically be using 5B for spacing and 2A to try and initiate some pressure, but be careful of running into her 5B when you attempt this. Try and keep on Tsubaki at all times and give her little room to breathe, but be smart about it and don’t run head-first at her if you don’t want to die.

Things To Look Out For:

She's got a lot for you to worry about. Tsubaki has a lot of tools to shut down Noels. On top of that, she can easily go for a Guard Crush with 236C/22C . Her 236C is + on block at max range, but punishable when used at point blank. With Charge, she can put you in an unblockable setup in the corner. You can 5D through it with the right timing though.

Be sure to watch her Charge gauge. Her D version specials are really good. Her 214X specials have upper body invincibility, so be careful if those are being thrown out. She can also end a block string with 22C, if she is after your primers. Watch out if she tries to charge cancel in her block strings. In addition, she can cancel any of her hit/blocked/whiffed moves with her D version specials to bait Drives or punish pokes. You could probably 5A/2A when she tries, since Tsubaki's 5D has some recovery and 2D has a minimum startup, in addition that now charging gives a counterhit state. Tsubaki also has a decent karathrow. Her 5B, 2A, and 6B are all + on block.

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updated - 8/21/11

Edited August 21, 2011 by AcoTan

[HexaNoid]

I've been playing Kiba quite often as well as a few other good Tsubaki players and so far this is how I feel about the match-up.

Overview

Tsubaki has some pretty decent tools at her disposal this time around that can give Noel a hard time. This match revolves around spacing control and footsies and it feels like Tsubaki is better in this department. However, when it comes to damage, Noel has the obvious advantage so capitalising on any and all of Tsubaki’s mistakes will be the key to winning.

Tools Analysis

6A – Tsubaki shouldn’t really be in the air that much since she has pretty poor aerial normals, but if your opponent ever attempts to come at you using an aerial approach like her j.214X (dive attacks), then 6A should be your answer to that. Don’t go air-to-air with her either; Noel’s aerial normals aren’t much better.

Note: 4D can also be used as an “anti-air” to stuff Tsubaki’s dives and net some nice damage for Noel too.

2D – Tsubaki’s 5B and 2C can shut down a 2D effortlessly, so try not to use this too much. Her 623A will also trade with almost every follow-up Noel uses in drive state on block while the D version will beat out our follow-up options clean out. 2D > d.4D on block can be used to bait out a DP which can be punished with an OpticA, but your best bet is to just use normals as much as possible in this match-up.

Note: If a Tsubaki ever uses 6B during their block-strings, 2D will beat it. However, 2D shouldn’t be mashed during block-strings as if they substitute 6B for 6A then you’ll get hit out of your attack. Also, if it’s seen coming, a Tsubaki can just wait for the 2D and counter with a 5B.

Optic Barrel – This move is great for stopping Tsubaki charging her install from full-screen after a knock-down and making them cautious of trying to keep a distance and charge as well. Look out for 236X (command dash attack) moves though as Tsubaki’s 236C can easily punish a whiffed OpticC that she has avoided with 236C.

Note: Opt for OpticA/B depending on spacing to try and catch a 236X attack.

On the Attack

Approaching Tsubaki can be quite a difficult thing to do with the tools she has; 2C has godly anti-air properties that’ll stop almost any aerial approach and 5B can stuff a lot of Noel’s ground approaches with its excellent range. 2D should be used sparingly since both her 5B and 2C can deal with these easily, but learning when and where to throw it out will be crucial. Noel should typically be using 5B for spacing and 2A to try and initiate some pressure, but be careful of running into her 5B when you attempt this. Try and keep on Tsubaki at all times and give her little room to breathe, but be smart about it and don’t run head-first at her if you don’t want to die.

On the Defence

Noel’s best defence against Tsubaki will typically be a good offence, but when you are caught in Tsubaki’s block-strings there are few things you should be aware of. Besides her 2A and 5B, all of Tsubaki’s normals are unsafe on block. However, she does have legitimate high/low mix-up with 6A/B which is her overhead and low respectively. It can be quite difficult to differentiate between the two since they look fairly alike, but knowing which is which will be important for more than just knowing where to block. Tsubaki’s 6B can be beaten with a 2D if she uses it in a block-string, but her 6A can beat us out of it; learning to react to her 6B with 2D will be really useful in this match-up. Also, Tsubaki is a rushdown character too, so she’ll want to be close to you as well; smart use of 4D can beat out her a lot of her approaches and lead into big damage.

[BatousaiJ]

Everything Hex points out is pretty much on the nose.

I've got a few things I'd add though.

I wouldn't bother trying to take out a 236x with optic barrel the risk vs award is really shoddy especially if you're gambling against 236D which leads to a full combo.

If you space and time your 2D right, you can actually go "above" and hit Tsu out of her 236x attack but the timing is precise and it's not something I'd try often unless the Tsu player is abusing 236x moves predictably.

Don't press buttons after blocking a 236C(red) at its near maximum range as it will be + for them unless you IB it. However, if you decide to do it point blank, feel free to punish with a poke.

If you block 236D(Cross over on hit/block), it's + on block so it's risky but 2D/4D option select depending on what you're expecting works given you watch out for the 214D/22D cancel.

You should be keeping on eagle eye watch on Tsu's charge meter as much as you would Tager's spark bolt and gather what they can and cannot do from that info.

With charge, they can cancel moves on block, hit or whiff into a D variation in many cases and will try to bait you into going into D or poke punish and get a free 214D(lots of invul frames, beatable by feet attribute moves) and the full combo off of that hurts all while putting you in a bad situation.

Tsu isn't harmless without charges but their tools and damage options are severely limited so you should do you very best to stick to the Tsu player the best you can and only let them get free charges when they earn it(when they score a knockdown/away on you).

Also, if you burst, you're left with two primers and most Tsu players will be out to break those with 236C/22C(236C > RC > 22C is incredibly quick primer killing combo) so watch out for that.

Don't get gung-ho about wake up D moves, even the 4D variation as 6C will stuff all your D moves on wake up into a meaty fatal counter combo that can lead to about 4.5-5k damage off of one charge use. Play smart and take your risk where the reward is greater and remember that you can afford to make some mistakes when Tsu doesn't have charges in stock but if you get trapped in the corner with Tsu at 1-2 charges, you're going to be a lot of pain if you're caught sleeping with a unblockable setup and the like.

Always be mentally prepared to react to that unblockable reset because if you're free to that, you're free to Tsubaki.

[LunaKage]

Pushing D is never an option select, especially against Tsubaki, since most of her moves hit us out of Drive to begin with.

[BatousaiJ]

It's like this.

If I read you wrong and go for a quick 2A poke(our goto close range poke) and you hit me with a 2D, you get 5K off of it.

If I think you're going to 2D and hit you with a 5B(no one runs up and does 2C when you're on the ground by the way), I can hit confirm that into 2k ish combo if I don't have any charges and maybe 3k with one charge with a bit of corner carry.

It's in your interest to know the risk/reward of each situation and take action accordingly. I have to guess right a lot more times to kill a Noel does to me and once you figure out the opportune time to take those risks, you should have the advantage.

[LunaKage]

It's like this.

If I read you wrong and go for a quick 2A poke(our goto close range poke) and you hit me with a 2D, you get 5K off of it.

If I think you're going to 2D and hit you with a 5B(no one runs up and does 2C when you're on the ground by the way), I can hit confirm that into 2k ish combo if I don't have any charges and maybe 3k with one charge with a bit of corner carry.

It's in your interest to know the risk/reward of each situation and take action accordingly. I have to guess right a lot more times to kill a Noel does to me and once you figure out the opportune time to take those risks, you should have the advantage.

2A leaves you crouching, we don't get 5k off of crouching Drive starters.

[BatousaiJ]

2D CH on crouchers don't go into the full combo?

News to me, however, something tells me it'll be more damage than the 2K punish I can whip out so still, a more beneficial exchange for you.

Which it basically is the case for most situations where you're both forced to guess.

[SkyKing]

I really feel that this isn't an even matchup. Tsu seems to have a lot of tools to shutdown Noel's most threatening option in drive, and her normals outshine ours so even attempting to pressure is up in the air. And having a better primer breaking plan than Noel really hurts Noel a bit.

[LunaKage]

4.5/5.5 Tsu at the least, 4/6 Tsu at the most.

Easily one of Noel's worst matchups, since even my shitty ass Makoto has an easier time with Tsubakis that know what they are doing.

[SkyKing]

A few things:

Messing around in training mode and I find that 6D can beat 236X > 214D, and in the worst-case scenario both characters trade CH hits and can't follow each other up. 5D goes through 236X and 2D can go over it, but Tsubaki should have meter to cancel them and hit Noel out of those 2 drive options.

Also, Tsubaki's dive can be beat out by 6A and all drive starters except 2D.

And, Tsubaki's unblockable can be 5D'ed through, so just keep a lookout for the animation with the paper flying around her and prepare to hit her out of it. Knowing the setup, it's actually beneficial to Noel since it's within the frame window to press 5D an not really have to stress too much on the timing.

[Sahgren]

6 members and 30+ people viewing this forum... why... GO AWAY, WE BITE... and... and STUFF!!!.... sorta....

I think it worked... xD

orz

Freakin' A, Tsu is hard to fight. I can't go airborne since her 2C is awesome, and Charging Stars is a terror on the ground.

[SkyKing]

orz

Freakin' A, Tsu is hard to fight. I can't go airborne since her 2C is awesome, and Charging Stars is a terror on the ground.

She's a really nutty match-up for anyone if you can't find the correct way to approach her. She's too good when you let her control pace and space.

[HexaNoid]

The question is: How do you go about not letting her control the pace and space in the match? She has an effective normal for shutting down any approach when done right and her Sanctus C/D can fuck you up if you try and tag her with an Optic Barrel and miss.

Whenever I win against a Tsubaki, I'm almost certain it's more luck than anything.

[SkyKing]

The question is: How do you go about not letting her control the pace and space in the match? She has an effective normal for shutting down any approach when done right and her Sanctus C/D can fuck you up if you try and tag her with an Optic Barrel and miss.

Whenever I win against a Tsubaki, I'm almost certain it's more luck than anything.

I've used OB less and less in this match because it's a lot more risky to throw out that drives. It's just begging to be stuffed by a Sanctus, and then she's got damage and optimal position on you afterward. I believe mobility is the most important thing in that match-up, simply because you have to make Tsubaki willing to move with you and into awkward or disadvantageous positions. And this goes for the entire cast, not just Noel. Noel has it even harder because of her style and lack of ranges, so converting your risks is very essential.

[Chiizu]

Or just be a boss-tier scrub by low-profiling dat 5B with 3C.

As for Sanctus, fuck knows. I always eat it anyway.

[HexaNoid]

Or just be a boss-tier scrub by low-profiling dat 5B with 3C.

As for Sanctus, fuck knows. I always eat it anyway.

I think I've been hit out of 3C by 5B when I've tried to do it before actually. :v

Also, Sanctus loses to 2/4/5D but you have to time it differently depending on the D you used.

Also also, we're gonna need to get this moved into the Tsubaki section, so if you could Luna~

[Chiizu]

Really? I only had my 3C stuffed at point blank range, when I'm trying to stuff a spacing 5B, it works wonders.

[Sahgren]

What I generally try to do is keep chasing after the Tsu and not give them room to breathe. C-Sanctus and all of her Lux Aeterna (the dive) are - on block according to the frame data, and if you keep chasing after them they ideally won't have time to charge up the stock for D-Sanctus.

OB can help for shooting them if they try to charge for extended periods of time at full screen. I've only really had limited success with it though; it doesn't seem to help as much if they just tap 5D.

3C should beat their 5B if you do it early enough.

[LunaKage]

What I generally try to do is keep chasing after the Tsu and not give them room to breathe. C-Sanctus and all of her Lux Aeterna (the dive) are - on block according to the frame data, and if you keep chasing after them they ideally won't have time to charge up the stock for D-Sanctus.

OB can help for shooting them if they try to charge for extended periods of time at full screen. I've only really had limited success with it though; it doesn't seem to help as much if they just tap 5D.

3C should beat their 5B if you do it early enough.

The problem is that if they see you chasing them they have plenty of time to throw out a 5B to stop you doing anything, even the things that beat 5B don't work 100% of the time, and honestly they are lucky to work 20% if the time, hell Tsubaki's DP even murders us, and that DP sucks.

[Sahgren]

The problem is that if they see you chasing them they have plenty of time to throw out a 5B to stop you doing anything, even the things that beat 5B don't work 100% of the time, and honestly they are lucky to work 20% if the time, hell Tsubaki's DP even murders us, and that DP sucks.

Better than letting them sit back and get up stock to endlessly charge around the screen with. At least then there's the chance of getting lucky and slipping in, rather than letting the Tsu run wild with the gameplan that puts Noel in an even worse position.

[LunaKage]

Better than letting them sit back and get up stock to endlessly charge around the screen with. At least then there's the chance of getting lucky and slipping in, rather than letting the Tsu run wild with the gameplan that puts Noel in an even worse position.

Yeah it's another one of those "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. The best thing we have going is that our 2D beats both her 6B and her 6A, so her most misleading mixup option is useless if we are trigger happy, sadly this is the only way I can win against Tsubakis that just don't give a fuck, wait for them to start pressure, wait for 6B/6A and 2D it on reaction, obviously if you are fighting a more respectful Tsubaki you can pressure them forever, but good luck finding a respectful Tsubaki.

[HexaNoid]

The best thing we have going is that our 2D beats both her 6B and her 6A.

I've actually been hit out of 2D when Tsubaki uses 6A. I've noticed that if you block a 6A though, they'll usually try and follow up with a 6B (which you can go over easily) so watching out for the overhead and preparing the counter has worked well for me.

[Airk]

I've actually been hit out of 2D when Tsubaki uses 6A. I've noticed that if you block a 6A though, they'll usually try and follow up with a 6B (which you can go over easily) so watching out for the overhead and preparing the counter has worked well for me.

>confused< 6A doesn't go to 6B, only to 5C, which you shouldn't be able to go over (CH maybe, but not go over). Or did you mean going to 6B AFTER 5C©? Because that's a fairly common option.

C-Sanctus and all of her Lux Aeterna (the dive) are - on block according to the frame data, and if you keep chasing after them they ideally won't have time to charge up the stock for D-Sanctus.

Do not fall prey to this fallacy. 236C (Don't call it C-Sanctus, since 236, 214 and 22 all start with Sanctus. You can call it C-Aequum if you want.) is only minus on block if it is spaced poorly. It has 10 active frames, and it doesn't go into recovery until it has finished them all, so if you're very close to Tsubaki when she does this, yes, she'll be at -5, but if she is further than about halfscreen away, she's going to be at +1 or more, up to about +5 at max range (just short of full screen). The other versions of this move work similarly but for shorter ranges, but most Tsubaki players don't use them because they don't lead into much (only the C and D versions give enough hitstun to combo into a normal, A/B only lead into like 1200 damage or so by cancelling to 214A>22A.)

Lux Aeterna is indeed moderately unsafe on block, but most of the time you won't see Tsubaki doing that outside randomly of maybe some jumpback attempts to bait something.

[HexaNoid]

>confused< 6A doesn't go to 6B, only to 5C, which you shouldn't be able to go over (CH maybe, but not go over). Or did you mean going to 6B AFTER 5C©? Because that's a fairly common option.

Yeah, that's what I meant. 6A > 5C > 6B. I just forgot what the linking move in between was..

[SolarMisae]

Solar picked up Noel and lives with Lunar.

This matchup...

.. orz ...

So in this you rushdown with normals and pray you can get a clean hit? Keeping her pinned is hard.