Rhiya Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 I'm getting a picture of you spamming frame traps over and over and wondering why no one ever gets hit by them. Serious, frame traps are your answer to them mashing when you want to do something else. That or you are just punishing someone for being bad (mashing for no reason). Frame trapping also tells people -not- to hit buttons. If I see a Ragna player doing 2A>2C a lot, I know he's looking for my mashing, so I don't mash. It's part of conditioning.
Errol Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) That's true. and then when he's convinced that he can throw something else out is when you put out the 2a. I mean really, when you say 2a, all you mean is 'punishes jabbing'. 22c->22a is the same sort of thing, it punishes a whole variety of options that the opponent has. Edited December 8, 2011 by Errol
Rhiya Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 22C>22A only punishes them -at range-, and even then, you're left at diadvantage and can't continue a blockstring without rapid. 22a is -9. It's a spacing trap, because if the opponent is in range they /will/ beat you by hitting buttons. There's a nine frame gap between 22C ending and 22A becoming active. Every single character can mash that.
Errol Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Yeah, the distinction is meaningless to me. You don't do 22c->22a at a range where you can be jabbed. You do 22c at the end of a block string to punish them for trying to stop you from resetting your block string. And then after 22c, you do 22a to punish almost everything that could hit you at that range, in that time.. 9 frames at 22c>22a range? I think there might be 1 or 2 moves in the whole game that beat that, besides DPs. and I can't remember - does it punish jump outs? (ed: not if they're holding up, but some people don't jump right away. eh.). But yeah, you're totally on the defensive if they block it. But by the time you get to 22a, there are at least 3 or 4 places you could've attempted to reset your pressure on already. Edited December 8, 2011 by Errol
Tsubaki 5B Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Ah OK ^^ thanks. Just was trying out what I remember from CS2 and going from there. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk well some footage is better than none so thanks lol
Airk Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Yeah, the distinction is meaningless to me. You don't do 22c->22a at a range where you can be jabbed. You do 22c at the end of a block string to punish them for trying to stop you from resetting your block string. And then after 22c, you do 22a to punish almost everything that could hit you at that range, in that time.. 9 frames at 22c>22a range? I think there might be 1 or 2 moves in the whole game that beat that, besides DPs. and I can't remember - does it punish jump outs? (ed: not if they're holding up, but some people don't jump right away. eh.). But yeah, you're totally on the defensive if they block it. But you're kindof not. You're basically at neutral, because after blocking anything that resembles a blockstring, followed by 22C > 22A, your opponent is so far away that they really have no options that could be viewed as a 'punish'. While nominally they have a frame advantage, they basically have to use it up in order to get in range to do much of anything. Technically, I guess Ragna could probably get away with a dash 5B to apply honest pressure after blocking a long range 22A, but the options are limited. But by the time you get to 22a, there are at least 3 or 4 places you could've attempted to reset your pressure on already. Tsubaki has about a billion of these, yes. Even in the most basic string, you're looking at: 5B 5C charge cancel 5CC charge cancel 6B anywhere 22C at any point, etc. The flexibility of Tsubaki's blockstrings is that you can end them in something neutral to positive at almost any time, so your opponent really has to be able to out-react you (You have the advantage, because you KNOW "I'm going to 5C charge cancel dash 2A" while your opponent has to react to the fact that you're not going into 5CC and try to do something accordingly.) The other thing about frame traps is that they are not JUST there to punish. They are there to help you read your opponent's behavior and condition them. If you do 5CC>22C a few times on a Noel, they're much less likely - even if they DIDN'T get hit, to try to call out a 5CC>6B with 2D than they would otherwise be. Similarly, if you do big strings of slightly delayed hits 2-3 times and your opponent never jabs, it's a pretty good sign that they're content to hold downback and you've probably got a fair chance of throwing them. Also, no, I think Excellence's list was bad. If you don't include the fact that you NEED to delay hits after 5B to frame trap, then you're not telling someone what the frame trap is.
Errol Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) True, really I still think it comes down to just knowing what your options are at any time, and which of your options beat which of their options. The important thing that I think has still been missed is that if you're going to do a frame trap.. there needs to be another option for the frame trap to be a trap. There has to be a reason that a good, knowledgeable player would want to put something out there. The noel one is a good example though, you do 5cc 22c to beat noel's 2d, which she tries to use to counter 6b, which is the other option you want to be using. for 5b, your next option that can be beat by mashing 2a is a. restart pressure, b. throw, c. overhead. Your option to beat 2a is a. 5bb, 2. 2b, 3. 6b, 4. 5c.. etc.....Their options to beat any of those are: dp.etc Edited December 9, 2011 by Errol
shad0whiei Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Watching some videos posted up by pktazn, it looks like 623A has alot more invulnerable frames than before? Or maybe projectile invincible completely at least? I don't remember seeing it trade at all against Ragna and even went through a Dead Spike completely. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Kiba Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 I'm not sure. In the recent Tsu v Tsu match PK uploaded, Tsubaki was able to beat the 623A with 5A, but that may have been because she hit her during the last active frame. It did not look like that was the case.
excelence Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Ugh ... 9f gap between 22c>22a ... well most of my match is against Jin, Mu, Rachel & Valk, if i use 22c randomly at the end block string, it's very good tool to keep them locked down , I thought the use is very similar to frame trap ... at least on those match.
Errol Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 I'm not sure. In the recent Tsu v Tsu match PK uploaded, Tsubaki was able to beat the 623A with 5A, but that may have been because she hit her during the last active frame. It did not look like that was the case. beat clean? I thought our 623a currently always -at least- traded?
Rhiya Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Watching some videos posted up by pktazn, it looks like 623A has alot more invulnerable frames than before? Or maybe projectile invincible completely at least? I don't remember seeing it trade at all against Ragna and even went through a Dead Spike completely. Hitbox buff, maybe?
Airk Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Ugh ... 9f gap between 22c>22a ... well most of my match is against Jin, Mu, Rachel & Valk, if i use 22c randomly at the end block string, it's very good tool to keep them locked down , I thought the use is very similar to frame trap ... at least on those match. It's not that bad - at the range you should be doing this at, most attacks that can reach you will have more than 9F of startup. Even Jesus Kick doesn't extend to full range until late, so...
LunarSelenia Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) Maybe we should make a list of people who are importing? -Daedron -BatousaiJ -Tsubaki 5B And I think a few others are as well, then we know who to go to for questions I'm getting my own copy of BBCSE, import. Best Christmas present ever~ Edited December 9, 2011 by LunarSelenia
BeaverDeity Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 I'm getting my own copy of BBCSE, import. Best Christmas present ever~ luuuuuckyyyyyy :3
Daedron Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Hitbox buff, maybe? Seems like it, I remember a video against...I think it was a makoto, but in any case the makoto was almost directly above Tsubaki and 623A still managed to hit her. If this is indeed true that's some pretty good news.
BatousaiJ Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Seems like it, I remember a video against...I think it was a makoto, but in any case the makoto was almost directly above Tsubaki and 623A still managed to hit her. If this is indeed true that's some pretty good news. I've noticed Kuresu DPs like a madman and in one occassion, his DP was baited but before Ragna could land quickly and 5B him, he just DP'ed him again really quickly(video here). It feels like the recovery after 623A might have been reduced as well. We'd need frame data to be sure of course but that seems a lot faster than I can remember from CS 2.
Tsubaki 5B Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 I've noticed Kuresu DPs like a madman and in one occassion, his DP was baited but before Ragna could land quickly and 5B him, he just DP'ed him again really quickly(video here). It feels like the recovery after 623A might have been reduced as well. We'd need frame data to be sure of course but that seems a lot faster than I can remember from CS 2. ok i just got out the lab with tsubaki and i can say this so far her 623A in CS2 is slower compared to CSEX also i noticed something she's more separated from her dp than in CS2 maybe that's why it seems she more invincibly but really i think she's farther away from her attack making it more difficult to hit her out of it again just a thought
Kiba Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 beat clean? I thought our 623a currently always -at least- traded? On the small screen
Kiba Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 So would anyone care to explain what we should primarily be using our DP for? IB - DP? What's the point in using it anywhere else where we can clearly be disrespected? -Specific angled aerial attacks beat it -Ragna's GH beats it -5A apparently beats it -Air throws beat it. Retarded. On a side note, I keep forgetting that it's a projectile.
BatousaiJ Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 So would anyone care to explain what we should primarily be using our DP for? IB - DP? What's the point in using it anywhere else where we can clearly be disrespected? -Specific angled aerial attacks beat it -Ragna's GH beats it -5A apparently beats it -Air throws beat it. Retarded. On a side note, I keep forgetting that it's a projectile. The 5A beating 623A is probably a case of the zero range hitbox zone that we've seen before where they are so close to you while the move begins that they technically "clip" through you and the move doesn't hit(we've seen this kind of thing before). It's most likely one of those "once in a blue moon" kind of phenomenon that we won't really have to account for- just be aware that it exists. If the hitbox has been improved vertically as some people suspect, it should nullify the whole getting air thrown out of the DP as a counter but we'll see. We've already established that Tsu's DP isn't really that great but the best part about her DP is that it's hard to punish with anything significant. Better DPs like Jin/Ragna's puts them at recovery for ages and in counter state to boot but Tsu's has a very very short recovery time and doesn't even put her at counter state. Add to that we can use j.236D/j.214D to cancel out of it instead of using up meter to RC if it gets baited makes it more flexible than most other DPs. There's a reason other than "LOL JPN TSUBAKIS MASH" that they tend to DP a lot and given you aren't too predictable in using it, it can be used quite effectively.
pktazn Posted December 9, 2011 Author Posted December 9, 2011 IIRC from somewhere, I remember LK saying that Konan DP'd like no tomorrow from when he went to Japan.
Errol Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 That was in CS2. of course, I've seen plenty of dps in the csex videos I've seen... I think? but that 5a beating the DP looked abusable to me, like you could easily do it, much like you can easily air throw it, etc. Also, I could've sworn I saw the same old -air throw out of dp- trick in csex..? the hitbox actually looks worse to me. Quicker or recovering faster is nice though. I'm sure it'll still get spammed a lot, but.. blah, I could've used some more positive news.
logichole Posted December 10, 2011 Posted December 10, 2011 Quick note - it's 6C > 2149D is the frametrap which can be DPed out of. 2369D is a complete blockstring. It just crosses-up. (*goes to read the frame data*) 6C has (nonstandard...) 22f guardstun. 214D has 22f startup, and is head/body invulnerable from frame 10-24, so the whole duration of the hit. Since you are jump-cancel-cancelling, the gap here is just a couple frames of jump-startup, and you're invincible to most things during your active frames. I did finally manage to do 6C jump-cancel-cancel into 22C, which is hilarious. Tasty guard primers into +1! It also has 19f startup so could be used as a trap if slightly delayed. The input for this is a huge pain though - I found it to be most consistent by inputting 6C > 282C. Still extremely inconsistent - I ended up jumping out of it usually, or not making it all the way to 8 and just getting a failed 22C input.
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