Airk Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Street fighter fast? It is fast for certain measures. A "fast" move in BB is 5 frames. A "fast" move in SF4 is 3. A "fast" overhead in BB is 19 frames. Ryu's overhead in SF4 is 17 (and I make no promises that there aren't faster.). The throw tech window in BB is 13 frames, in SF4 it's like 4 or something. There are things about SF4 that are fast. Movement is not one of them, however, so the game 'feels' slow in some ways. Also, I wouldn't get too excited about the 5B not being a counterhit - it looks like they just reduced the CH time on it (which is a completely seperate value from the recovery, which is why, for example, when Tsubaki gets punished after an A DP in Extend, it's not a counter hit, even though she's clearly still in recovery.)
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 It's not completely separate, For most moves it is just based on the recovery. I think it was something like 5 frames before being fully recovered, counter hit state ends. Same as attack level and untech time being related. Jin's DP is just slow, imo.
Airk Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 It's not completely separate, For most moves it is just based on the recovery. I think it was something like 5 frames before being fully recovered, counter hit state ends. Same as attack level and untech time being related. I guess, but I feel there's an extra level of "detachment" here, because with attack level and hitstun, attack level determines hitstun unless an exception is added. With counter hit time, it's just that they usually match up. Probably just me being weird. Or maybe I just didn't notice the pattern with CH time, whereas the relation between attack level and hitstun is quite definitively written down. Also, what I meant by "supermugen" - doesn't Hakumen get to use OD with Mugen to extend it, whereas our OD basically does nothing except disable bursting if we use it in Mugen?
FatalCounter Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Jin is the character I use the most in versus mode; and his DP C always counter my 5B even on wake up. I don't think it is just the fact that his DP is too slow, I even tried it now in training mode and I get countered every time. Anyways! Regarding SF, SF characters movement is slower, because there are no run type character (except Dan), no double jumps, no air dashes (except Oni), but moves and combos are really faster than BB. It is a footsies game. BTW, what do you think about the Games lineup for EVO 2013?
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) Also, what I meant by "supermugen" - doesn't Hakumen get to use OD with Mugen to extend it, whereas our OD basically does nothing except disable bursting if we use it in Mugen? OD extends Tsubaki's mugen. Jin is the character I use the most in versus mode; and his DP C always counter my 5B even on wake up. I don't think it is just the fact that his DP is too slow, I even tried it now in training mode and I get countered every time. Anyways! 5b Frame data. 10f startup 5f active 17f recovery, CH till 24f. Jin C DP is 20 frame startup. If you're getting CH then your 5b isn't even close to meaty. At best you can do a meaty 5b and even block the DP in time. Edited January 9, 2013 by Errol
Airk Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 OD extends Tsubaki's mugen. Hrm. When did we discover this? Because I would have sworn that the last time I looked the thread just said "If you activate Mugen then OD, Mugen will take priority over OD" without mention of it draining slower. x.x
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) FAQ update was on 12/4 thing is I don't know what to make of it. if mugen doesn't override SMP, which I doubt it does, there's a limit on how many D moves you can do. there are even less parts that you can use in CP than there were in CSEX. (You probably can't use 236D if you use 46D>236D)). Combined with all of hte combos being faster, and mugen not draining faster (I believe, but i haven't looked..). I have no idea how to fill out a 5 charge mugen combo, let alone a 5 charge OD mugen combo. Something like a 3 charge OD combo, it seems to me like you'd peter out by the end of the mugen. but you're also kinda restricted to finishing your combo BEFORE mugen ends, if you want to finish with a strong DD - or else you have to have mugen run out quick and let OD give you charge back before your combo ends. (ie 1 charge mugen OD, get to 3 or 4 charge before combo ends. Edited January 9, 2013 by Errol
Surf Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I actually love BBCP. I somewhat meant BB in general. We'll have to wait till console release to see people dabble with Mugen most likely.
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 People are messing with mugen some, I see tweets from Spinoza with it, but yeah, haven't seen much in the way of high charge mugen. which is not terribly practical anyway.
Surf Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Arc still doesnt freaking know what they want to do with Tsubaki. In EX they buff Mugen but then give 3CC bonus proration which in turn makes Mugen buff somewhat useless in comparison to 3CC in most situations. And npw with Crush Trigger, which is basically a cheaper 3CC, Mugen is still on the backburner. Yes charges are easier to get in this game but so is meter to an extent. Another thing that made Mugen very impratical in the earlier iterations was the burst system. If you opponent had a burst you'd never want to use Mugen because 9/10 they'd burst out of it. With there only being one burst now it makes things a bit viable. But then what i just said earlier debunks that. This character, this game. Whyyyy
Adam0812 Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I use mugen to bait bursts, against a good player I'm quite happy to spend 50 heat to take their burst. You make some valid points surfeit, especially given how strong 3cc > RC is in extend. Tbh what I've seen so far of CP tsu nothing looks particularly great, her damage is nice and 46d > 236d looks swag but even Kuresu doesn't seem to be doing much new. How much does the game change in terms of technology when the game gets a console release? Can we expect all new routes that we haven't seen at all??
Surf Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I like CP Tsubaki more than EX but it still bothers me after 4 iterations of her being in the game their still derping on how to have her play.
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way but my problems with Tsubaki are not related to mugen. We do good damage without mugen, and I'm ok just thinking of mugen as a damage tool anyway. it's the normal moves that bug me... Things like not having a jump attack with a crossup. Slow startups, Slow recoveries, Poor frame advantage, Poor hitboxes, Gaps in blockstrings. blockstring flexibility.
FatalCounter Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) it's the normal moves that bug me... Things like not having a jump attack with a crossup. Slow startups, Slow recoveries, Poor frame advantage, Poor hitboxes, Gaps in blockstrings. blockstring flexibility. Sometimes, I feel the same way, the fact that her normals are pairs (5BB, 2BB....) are often predictable. Gap in blockstrings are the worse thing about her. When I play online and the connection is not that good it is easy for Tager to throw me, Ragna or Jin to DP me. I hope they fixed it in BBCP. But at least she is annoying as hell, when I play a mirror match, I suddenly understand how annoying it is to deal with her. But in general, you are right, she lacks some things very important to make her a really good character. For me, Jin is the perfect character of BB or Bang. Some reasons why I continue to play her is that she is flashy as hell, she has one of the most inventive combos in the game, she has the same astrological sign as me and her hair yes her hair. lol. Edited January 9, 2013 by FatalCounter
Airk Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way but my problems with Tsubaki are not related to mugen. We do good damage without mugen, and I'm ok just thinking of mugen as a damage tool anyway. I agree; Though they're even kinda messing with this a bit in this game since they made our other supers somewhat less crap for damage dealing (since you can combo after them). I don't really want 'mugen' to be a huge central part of playing the character. it's the normal moves that bug me... Things like not having a jump attack with a crossup. Slow startups, Slow recoveries, Poor frame advantage, Poor hitboxes, Gaps in blockstrings. blockstring flexibility. Yes, this. I get cranky everytime I look at Hazama's normals. It's like "What? That's plus? And that is THAT fast? And reaches that far?" I really feel like they're not really giving this character time/thought.
Surf Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I get cranky everytime I look at Hazama's normals. It's like "What? That's plus? And that is THAT fast? And reaches that far?" I really feel like they're not really giving this character time/thought. ^^^^^ How the hell does this make sense. The transition from CS2 to EX they nerfed the recovery of almost ALL of her moves. But characters like Hazama stay the goddamn same. Where half of his moves or safe or plus on block. Rassenga? +1. Zangeia? -2 but still relatively safe. Jabaki? +1. Why the hell are his mixup specials safe, even if you guess right usually he can continie his pressure. His A's are safe and his 5B is plus damn 2, not to mention in EX its just cancelable. 6B +3. It just pisses me off when i see things like this. The only thing i can see that MIGHT warrant that are her charge cancels. But even then i dont think they needed to nerf her normals AND specials. Dumbass balancers are dumbasses In CS2 she was at her best (minus CP), but even then the highest she was was about upper mid tier. She was good but she wasnt bullshit. I love Tsubaki. But goddammit this game just drives me insane
Kiba Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) I was extremely hesistant to respond..... Arc still doesnt freaking know what they want to do with Tsubaki. In EX they buff Mugen but then give 3CC bonus proration which in turn makes Mugen buff somewhat useless in comparison to 3CC in most situations. And npw with Crush Trigger, which is basically a cheaper 3CC, Mugen is still on the backburner. Yes charges are easier to get in this game but so is meter to an extent. Another thing that made Mugen very impratical in the earlier iterations was the burst system. If you opponent had a burst you'd never want to use Mugen because 9/10 they'd burst out of it. With there only being one burst now it makes things a bit viable. But then what i just said earlier debunks that. This character, this game. Whyyyy Then don't use mugen. Honestly I already discussed this on the last page. We have better options. Hakumen has mugen as well but how often do we see that? Tbh what I've seen so far of CP tsu nothing looks particularly great, her damage is nice and 46d > 236d looks swag but even Kuresu doesn't seem to be doing much new. Seriously? We have a command grab that makes people jump out of our pressure so you've gotta confirm your stuff into 5CC now where we can rack up some good damage in the corner especially.We have a new super that can guarantee us a command grab unless the opponent spends 50 heat on a CA, or even use that time to get 2 guaranteed charges. We can get a full IAD combo from a 6A now which opens up our combo potential midscreen. That's like 2.7k w/o stock. CT again adds to our mixup somewhat and amplifies our damage, not to mention we don't have to RC 3CC on FC to get a full combo. Aside from that fact that her normals are lacking in some regards, what more do you guys want? it's the normal moves that bug me... Things like not having a jump attack with a crossup. Slow startups, Slow recoveries, Poor frame advantage, Poor hitboxes, Gaps in blockstrings. blockstring flexibility. Slow recoveries and poor frame advanatge can be remedied with our ability to charge cancel normals. Granted I'll give you the hitbox issue and slow startups, AND the fact that we can't charge cancel every normal, but with your blockstrings you have to be really creative to pull anything off. We have j.236X that can crossup, and even though it's not necessarily what you're talking about, it's still something. When I play online and the connection is not that good it is easy for Tager to throw me, Ragna or Jin to DP me. I hope they fixed it in BBCP. Why are you using blockstrings on Tager? :| Edited January 9, 2013 by Kiba
pktazn Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) I'm with everyone else who said something about her normals, though like Kiba said it can be remedied. I admit that I'd like a little more help from Arcsys about it though hah! Mugen has never been a huge deal in our gameplan honestly but I am glad they decided to do something with it, otherwise I would have just said to take it out completely and replace it with something else. For the Extend balance changes... there are no answers. Only Arcsys knows. The only thing I can offer as an explanation for anyone is that they have a very bad tendency to nerf anyone who is "strong" and buff whoever is "weak" generally. Does this mean it happens fairly across the board? Nooope. It was pretty much agreed that Tsubaki was a good mid-tier character but apparently Arcsys saw something Iblamekonan.plzkeepplayingherlol and decided to nerf her. OR they thought the nerfs wouldn't hurt her too badly. Honestly, it just made it harder to win with her but Konan and Kuresu seemed to be doing well for the most part during Extend's life so take that as you will. As for changes in finding combo routes/paths/"technology" when the console version hits, the most likely thing that will happen is that first, they will try to optimize known combos since they can use training mode all they want and get specific conditions easier. Later on or during that the hope is that since they are able to set up specific conditions, they'll be able to find/test out new ideas that can be applied to matches as well. They may not find anything right away though. These things take time especially since it may be character-specific, vary due to how the match-ups work, or if a balance patch later comes in down the road. Edited January 9, 2013 by pktazn
Airk Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I'm with everyone else who said something about her normals, though like Kiba said it can be remedied. I don't really agree that charge cancels are really that big a help; I mean, I guess they are, but only because the normals are so terrible to begin with that they go from "Pretty darn bad" to "Just kinda bad" when you charge cancel them. :P The only saving grace here is that we can reset pressure from -2 anywhere in our blockstring. Yay, I guess. They may not find anything right away though. These things take time especially since it may be character-specific, vary due to how the match-ups work, or if a balance patch later comes in down the road. I'm really not worried about combos or damage - I never really am so long as it's not complete garbage. I worry about neutral tools - And we do seem to have gotten a few good ones this time - and pressure tools, where I feel we're still kinda lacking. I guess we'll see as time goes on.
Errol Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Slow recoveries and poor frame advanatge can be remedied with our ability to charge cancel normals. Granted I'll give you the hitbox issue and slow startups, AND the fact that we can't charge cancel every normal, but with your blockstrings you have to be really creative to pull anything off. We have j.236X that can crossup, and even though it's not necessarily what you're talking about, it's still something. Well you'll note that I listed poor recovery separate from frame advantage. This is getting at neutral, mostly... If you whiff you're exposed. I feel like they have done everything I could desire practically, from a standpoint outside of normals. Damage is way up, Dp is strong, Mixup is stronger (but as an RPS throw character). But the normal situation kind of sucks and that's why I think that despite all the other stuff being awesome, we're not at the top. Somethings fundamentally lacking, and in my opinion, that is normal moves. When other characters are strong, they're top tier, but even when Tsubaki is strong, it doesn't seem like she gets there. But I think CP will be a fun game, and def better off than now, and def not bad, just not top tier.
Kiba Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I don't really agree that charge cancels are really that big a help; I mean, I guess they are, but only because the normals are so terrible to begin with that they go from "Pretty darn bad" to "Just kinda bad" when you charge cancel them. :P The only saving grace here is that we can reset pressure from -2 anywhere in our blockstring. Yay, I guess. I suppose but that's all we have atm. Unless you wanna do gimmicky stuff like 5CC > Blade super lol. Even then, it's lacking in that it needs to be covered... Stuff I see whatcha saying. Agreed. Oh and I agree with PK also.
FatalCounter Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) At least she has a fireball, but Why TH, that fireball doesnt't go full screen like other fireballs. So you have to sacrify the meter you early gained for a better fireball 46D, that sucks a bit! I can't believe Hazama who came with Tsubaki in CS is always top tier while our baby is having hard time. Maybe, a Hazama or Jin player need to win a major so they can nerf them a bit (I don't like it though, better buff weak characters). Hey Kiba, I didn't use something special on Tager, only 5BB > 5CC > D cancel and he punished me before the second C came out, I get furious (5620 dmg and he won) Edited January 10, 2013 by FatalCounter
Surf Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I dont care about being top tier. No character "deserves" to be top tier. Im with Errol and Airk in saying her normals themselves news to become a better framewise. I dont care about the small damage, or the hitboxes, i just want her normals to be better. And Kiba you know personally that I dont use Mugen. Hell i just now found ways to confirm into it consistenly a couple weeks ago. But i was trying to say why buff Mugen when you buff something else in the same iteration that makes Mugen pretty much useless. You dont see Hakumens use Mugen because its even more impractical as ours, he needs full meter. Besides he gets the damage he needs off a smaller amount. So why use it.
Daedron Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Hey Kiba, I didn't use something special on Tager, only 5BB > 5CC > D cancel and he punished me before the second C came out, I get furious (5620 dmg and he won) 5BB has a gap in itself without even needing an IB and 5CC has a gap if 5C is IB'ed. The only thing you need is 5B, 22x, 2C and air throw. Just refer to the matchup thread to be honest since this isn't really the right place for this I think :V
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