Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 I think those numbers are off by usually 2. Charge cancels are like special cancels, which you can cancel on the first active frame, and not after the last active frame. The numbers come down to simply attack level. level 3 is -2, level 4 is +/- 0. Level 2 is -5 I believe and anything else than that is of course rather bad.
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) So subtract 2 from what I have right now is what you mean Edit: Nevermind I fixed them. Values should be correct now, thanks. Thought it just applied until the active frames were over. In any case its nice to know the numbers. Edited January 27, 2013 by Surf
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Hmm. Forgot her air normals are charge cancel ok in CP now. Hopefully the recovery of j.D is the same. Normally frame advantage from air normals would be height dependent but because j.D freezes her in place the frame advantage should be a constant at any given height. I've updated my post to include her air normals with EX's numbers. This is just a faint idea of the frame advantage so take it with some salt, as we don't know if her numbers for air normals or j.D are different in CP. But if these numbers are the same in CP then I think the best option would be to charge cancel at a height where you can either apply pressure with another air normal or high enough to airdash away if need to. Doing it too low to the ground will have you enter landing recovery and your frame advantage would be pretty much lost by then. j.C/CC both seem to be the best ones to charge cancel since your left at an advantage.
Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 +1 is obviously not very good since our fastest air normal is 8 frames. Leaves us in roughly the same boat as ground charge canceling. Except that if you are blocked after the charge cancel and land, you're probably going to be at a disadvantage.
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 I dont see how its "obviously" not good. Other than continuing pressure she has some other options as well. Like airdashing away, double jumping after, j.236A (should left her up more and the ball would hit them, but risky). Its alot better than being minus and I see some utility in it.
Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 I'm saying it's the same as ground charge cancels. +1 in this case doesn't mean you have an advantage. If they guess it or see it, they can hit you out of whatever you'd do next, just like ground charge charge cancels.
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 They cant hit you if their still in blockstun. If they even block j.C or CC and you charge cancel them they will still be in blockstun even when your finished charging and free to act. The only way they would really hit you out of it is if you attempted to continue pressure afterwards. In that case you either have the choice of baiting whatever they plan to do (double jumping, airdashing away, or just plain blocking), or just go straight into a delayed j.CC for a CH and 4k combo if you have the resources. No charge cancel on the ground is safe except 5CC. And even then, the move pushes them back far enough so the 0 doesnt really amount to much.
Mcgreag Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) He is saying that when you charge cancel j.C and then do an j.A/j.B if the opponent do an attack you will at best trade because most everyone elses j.A is at least frame faster than Tsubakis. So using it to extend air pressure is going to be of limited use. It might be possible to try some air throw setups, aiming for a throw counter. Edited January 27, 2013 by Mcgreag
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Yes I know what he meant, and I was saying continuing pressure is not the only option that is there for you. Im experimenting with some j.C > RC > j.D stuff in EX right now and it's definitely safe. Going into air barrier after the j.D blocks reversals or mashing. Or you can airdash away if they have the meter to RC their reversal and you don't want to deal with that. Her airdash back is surprisingly fast and its lol worthy to see the DPs just whiff like hell one after the other. It even avoids Tagers AC when your magnetized, he still sucks you in but you don't enter it's hitbox. Free to spark bolt though
toanenadiz Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Can they throw you if you charge cancel an air normal and just block afterwards?
Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 I think air charge cancels are going to be mostly annoying to use. But, I think air charge cancel > throw when you meet in the air will be fun. As far as frame advantage, there are going to be all these weird heights with regards to charge canceling. You need to charge cancel at a height where you have enough time to get out an attack. There are heights where if you try to JC your attack won't come out. if you JB, your attack will come out but your frame advantage and combo potential will be gone by the time you land. (There's virtually no possibility to combo off JB after a charge cancel even at ultra-deep height). Then the fact that lots of times when you hit with a JC, you already have an airtight block string, or if not airtight, very plus even after you land.
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Rachel, Tager, and Arakune are the only 3 who can airthrow her. Everyone elses whiffs. Rachel and Tager can only throw her if she opts to do a high j.CC > j.D. But they cant throw her if she just does j.C > j.D. But Arakune can throw her on both occasions, for some odd reason.
toanenadiz Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 The Murakumo air throws whiff but Arakune's doesn't? That is weird. I guess I should ask if this is for air to ground or air to air?
Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Ah yeah, air throw range nerf in CP. Probably can't charge cancel > air throw due to range.
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 The Murakumo air throws whiff but Arakune's doesn't? That is weird. I guess I should ask if this is for air to ground or air to air? Yea I was also confused on why Mu's and Lambda's whiffed when they have the bigger throw ranges in the cast. Tsubaki is in the air and the opposing character is on the ground. After the j.D I attempt a throw, and only the 3 I mentioned before managed to be able to throw her before she hit the ground. All the other characters throws would whiff because Tsubaki was too low by the time the throw was out
Errol Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 What are jump startup numbers for the cast? I thought arakune had the slowest jump startup for that matter, altho he used to have the fastest I think
toanenadiz Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Everyone is 4 frames except Arakune (5) and Tager(6). You can see them here
Surf Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 The 2 characters with the slowest startups can throw her but the others besides Rachel can't, Im just confused now.
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 There are two uses I see for air charge cancels in CP: #1: The "Triple overhead" j.C > j.CC > cc > j.C on a grounded target. This will require either a cornered opponent and 1 charge for j.214D or two charges, for j.214D > 236D. A bit of a gimmick, probably, but something you can pull out occasionally. #2: Changing/stopping air momentum. I've seen a few players do 6C > forward jc > cc > j.C (or stuff) so it looks like you're going to jump over them and then you don't. Alternatively, it might be possible to cross up, charge cancel to halt momentum, and then do an attack? All of these have the rotten issue of landing recovery damaging combo options though. Maybe if they're really nice they'll make jumping charge cancels not give landing recovery. /pipedream.
Surf Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 #2: Changing/stopping air momentum. I've seen a few players do 6C > forward jc > cc > j.C (or stuff) so it looks like you're going to jump over them and then you don't. Alternatively, it might be possible to cross up, charge cancel to halt momentum, and then do an attack? All of these have the rotten issue of landing recovery damaging combo options though. There were a couple time when I was experimenting that after the opposing character blocked her j.C, if she was close enough to them (like right ontop of them) she would appear on the other side after the j.D. The forward momentum would carry her a little. Its really weird and only happened about 3 times and I couldn't really get her to do it purposely successfully. The spacing is very very specific.
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 that's probably an artifact of using RC instead of JD don't you think?
abadlime Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Quick question guys, what's j.214d on block? I'm sure it's negative though.
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_%28Tsubaki_BBCSE%29
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