abadlime Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_%28Tsubaki_BBCSE%29 *bows* Thank you this will probably save many questions.
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Ask al lyou want, Just figured I should link it at the least.
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 They could at least reduce JD landing recovery a little bit. 9 frames of landing recovery is really pretty harsh. The landing recovery that people complain about getting on other characters, is like, oh, 3f on landing after doing an attack with a gigantic hit box. 5f and I would be satisfied.
Surf Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Air options afterwards seem fine to me. I'm never just straight j.D'ing in the air until I land anyhow. And if I am I usually whiff j.B/C on my way down so I don't enter j.D's ground recovery. I do admit that this game just has straight dumb shit on what some characters can do, and what some characters can't do.
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Granted, you usually don't get hit if you're using it defensively, but you don't get rid of the landing recovery by doing stuff. The landing recovery is only "canceled" by doing J214D because J214D has more landing recovery anyway and overwrites it. Hopefully an iad back with a jb or something will leave you in a good enough position. But then your position is still gonna be 9f worse than it would've been otherwise. That might not be enough to get you hit but it might be enough to force you to block....
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Why do we play this character again? Because we feel bad for her. Also, I appear to be magically drawn to low tier characters, since I played Guy in SSF4, and eventually settled on Akihiko in P4A (after discarding Naoto as too much work. :P ). But yes, 9/15 frames of landing recovery is ridiculously punishing. Jin players talk about how "super risky" j.D is when it has _5_ frames of landing recovery. Someone once told me that if you do another move after doing a move with landing recovery (i.e. doing j.B after j.D) that your landing recovery becomes special cancellable. I have no idea where they got this info or whether it is correct or not. x.x
toanenadiz Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) I never knew that canceling into a different move didn't negate landing recovery. Then again, I never paid much attention to landing recovery. I gotta do some testing next time I play now. Edit: Airk, you netplay right? How have I never ran into you on XBL if you are on the EC? Edited January 28, 2013 by toanenadiz
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Edit: Airk, you netplay right? How have I never ran into you on XBL if you are on the EC? Boy do I, and I don't know. Would love to get some practice vs. a Lambda that doesn't just mash 5C and hope I run into it.
mAc Chaos Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Why would doing a different move negate landing recovery. All moves have recovery. i am confus Although I think if you are in the startup of a move, like Haku j.2C super close to the ground, you can avoid some recovery... or can you. Argh, maybe that's the same thing.
toanenadiz Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) I thought that landing recovery meant that if you land after doing that move, you have that many frames of recovery when you hit the ground. So j2DD > land by itself would have 5 frames of landing recovery because of j2DD but j2DD > j214D~C > 66 > jB > jC > land wouldn't. As I said before, I never paid much attention to it and never noticed it so I guess it isn't that big of a deal to my Lambda. Edited January 28, 2013 by toanenadiz
mAc Chaos Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 I'm pretty sure that, just like there's jump startup, there's landing frames where you are helpless after you land, which is why Tager can 360 you.
toanenadiz Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) Oh. I see the confusion here. We are talking about moves that have something specifically called landing recovery. If you check out the notes under Lambda's jD, j2D and j214D in the frame data, you will see something that says "XF landing recovery". We are talking about that special landing recovery. Edited January 28, 2013 by toanenadiz
Surf Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 I mean it's not like Im dying because j.D has 9 frames of landing recovery I die because I cant block, but its just one of those things were you question why. Even if they made it 4 frames on landing I dont think it would make much of a difference if you weren't some brand new Tsubaki, who would just j.D then dive over and over.
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 I mean it's not like Im dying because j.D has 9 frames of landing recovery I die because I cant block I have. Most of the time, if you air charge without getting hit and don't use either an air option or a dive to change your position before landing, it's because your opponent is ignorant. They can basically run the hell up to you and punch you in the face in almost any circumstance while you are air charging. And yeah. Blocking is hard. but its just one of those things were you question why. Even if they made it 4 frames on landing I dont think it would make much of a difference if you weren't some brand new Tsubaki, who would just j.D then dive over and over. Almost EVERYTHING about Tsubaki makes me wonder 'why'; I swear, it's NOT hard here, Arc Sys. You've got a character framework here that is every bit as potentially solid as all the characters that people are constantly accusing of being "always good" but you keep ignoring the strengths of the design, applying unnecessary nerfs, and just generally going "Well, maybe if we twist this backwards and apply some putty, it'll magically be good." How about you look at the character, what she's supposed to do, what tools she has, and then make those tools useful for what she's supposed to do? Rocket science, this is not. Here are some super secret tips: #1) Make her followup normals good. You gave them to her, now stop making them suck. 5BB should 'step' her forward so she's in range for it to hit (the animation even HAS her stepping forward). 2BB should be good for something. 2CC should have anti air properties OR not whiff on crouching opponents. Gatlings should be tight but delayable (okay, they mostly got this last subpoint right finally). #2) Make her D specials good. I'm actually quietly wondering if 623D is actually WORSE than 623C in CP, because I totally wouldn't put it past them to change 623C and say "Okay, okay, we gave her a good DP are you happy now?" and then not even look at 623D. It should be possible to spend charge for frame advantage in some way - probably 22D seems the logical choice. #3) Examine her normals in detail. Now fix them so that they're good for applying pressure. 2B should not be that slow. Neither should 6A. She should have some way to get frame advantage somewhere other than 6B. This character's offense centers around getting up in your opponent's face and making them nervous so they get hit, and her normals should reflect that. Erg. Rant mode off, sorry.
toanenadiz Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 #3) Examine her normals in detail. Now fix them so that they're good for applying pressure. 2B should not be that slow. Neither should 6A. She should have some way to get frame advantage somewhere other than 6B. This character's offense centers around getting up in your opponent's face and making them nervous so they get hit, and her normals should reflect that. Why? Isn't it normal in BB for characters to only have one normal plus on block? Ragna has 2C, Plat and Jin have 6B, Bang has 6A, ect. I know there are some with 2 (like Noel with 2A and 2C) but it seems like they don't often give out plus on block normals in BB. Unless you are fucking Hazama. Why is his 5B +2 on block? He also has a plus 2A and 6B
mAc Chaos Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 You're supposed to rely on gatlings with most characters.
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Why? Isn't it normal in BB for characters to only have one normal plus on block? Ragna has 2C, Plat and Jin have 6B, Bang has 6A, ect. I know there are some with 2 (like Noel with 2A and 2C) but it seems like they don't often give out plus on block normals in BB. Unless you are fucking Hazama. Why is his 5B +2 on block? He also has a plus 2A and 6B Also, Hakumen. 5A, 2A, 2B. Plus he has tons of specials that are plus, because, you know, they cost meter that he gets for free, as opposed to our super negative advantage specials that cost meter that we have to give up pressure/put ourselves in a counterhit state to get. And you know, Hazama isn't really that different from Tsubaki in terms of how their normals are supposed to work, because they both have relatively short range normals and they're supposed to stay up in their opponent's face. CS2 Tsubaki (The best version of her yet) also had a +1 5B and a +2 2A. I'd also assert that Tsubaki isn't a "footsies character" like Ragna/Jin/Arguably Plat. You'll also observe that those characters are less negative on their normals overall, with none of this lolzy "-11 on block, or you can cancel it into sparkly lights so your opponent knows you've cancelled" stuff.
toanenadiz Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 My point was more that those characters can still pressure people without having to rely on a move plus on block to reset pressure. They should buff Tsubaki's other stuff to make people afraid of pressing buttons (like make those -11 moves not -11) rather than give her a move that makes it harder for them to press buttons. My note about Hazama was more that he was the stupid outlier that shouldn't have all those normals plus on block. Hakumen having plus normals makes complete sense since his stuff is mostly links, not cancels.
Surf Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Unless you are fucking Hazama. Why is his 5B +2 on block? He also has a plus 2A and 6B How the hell does this make sense. The transition from CS2 to EX they nerfed the recovery of almost ALL of her moves. But characters like Hazama stay the goddamn same. Where half of his moves or safe or plus on block. Rassenga? +1. Zangeia? -2 but still relatively safe. Jabaki? +1. Why the hell are his mixup specials safe, even if you guess right usually he can continue his pressure. His A's are safe and his 5B is plus damn 2, not to mention in EX its jump cancelable. 6B +3. It just pisses me off when i see things like this. The only thing i can see that MIGHT warrant that are her charge cancels. But even then i dont think they needed to nerf her normals AND specials. Dumbass balancers are dumbasses I'm not the only one. Anyway, I agree with you Airk. But Toan's also right as well. Every character should and has at least one + on block move within their arsenal. But I can live without being + all the time. It's just her normals that are the problem. #1) Make her followup normals good. You gave them to her, now stop making them suck. 5BB should 'step' her forward so she's in range for it to hit (the animation even HAS her stepping forward). 2BB should be good for something. 2CC should have anti air properties OR not whiff on crouching opponents. Gatlings should be tight but delayable (okay, they mostly got this last subpoint right finally). Wasn't it said that in CP they nerfed the distance she goes during her 5BB animation. gg. 2BB is probably her worst followup normal. It has little to no use. You cant even delay 2B into 2BB because the delay window is for some odd reason, very small compared to her other delay windows. #2) Make her D specials good. I'm actually quietly wondering if 623D is actually WORSE than 623C in CP, because I totally wouldn't put it past them to change 623C and say "Okay, okay, we gave her a good DP are you happy now?" and then not even look at 623D. It should be possible to spend charge for frame advantage in some way - probably 22D seems the logical choice. Her D's used to be good. 236D was +2, 22D was +3 in CS1/2. But 623D seems to forever be useless. An extra frame on invul and losing its projectile properties doesn't really amount to much in the end, unless your against specific characters. But you would think, that they would let her D's keep their frame advantage while just nerfing her charges. So its harder to get charges but its rewarding because you can make yourself safe. Nope #3) Examine her normals in detail. Now fix them so that they're good for applying pressure. 2B should not be that slow. Neither should 6A. She should have some way to get frame advantage somewhere other than 6B. This character's offense centers around getting up in your opponent's face and making them nervous so they get hit, and her normals should reflect that. I had a thought awhile ago that they should change some followup normals like 5BB, to also be available as standalones. Like making 5BB a standalone by pressing 4B or making 2BB 3B. It would be pretty interesting. A lot of her options do warrant whys. Why IS 2B that slow. Why IS 6A slow also couple with having a terrible P1 even for her. But you also have to look at it this way Take a look at Tsubaki's drive and how it works, now imagine if she had about the same average damage as a couple of the rest of the cast. Then that would be a problem, she would have ok damage without her D specials, and with them her damage would be very much above average. But then you would think ok lets just not make D specials good for damage, well then whats the point of charging for them if they don't help combo potential. Her damage is warranted because of her drive, I complained at first but Ive come to understand it. So lets go to her normals, which are pretty poor. Almost all are unsafe. Even with charge canceling, a staple for her. I just did the numbers myself a couple days ago. How do they expect for us to come in with said poor normals, continue pressure with said unsafe normals, and be rewarded by damage that ain't much to right home about. You made her into a rushdown character but your changing her tools to make her rushdown quite ineffective, which just defeats the purpose of everything. But thanks for the command grab. I know a lot of you would think Airk and I are complaining. Maybe we are. But when you play a game and a type of character like this, and you see what other characters in the same game can accomplish, it raises a huge question mark for us.
FatalCounter Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) @Airk, I seriously agree with you. Sometimes I think, why they really hate Tsubaki? Maybe Konan should stop winning anything. lol Seriously, let's compare her to another low-tier character in BBCS EX (he got way better in BBCP though) -Relius jD has only 4f recovery, and really easy to combo off after jB or jC. For Tsubaki, I can't use jD after a double jump because my options will be very limited. But after a jump, I can dash and avoid getting close to my opponent. -Tsubaki jB is really fast with great recovery, but come on, I can't even hit confirm after an air CH jB. That sucks!!!! -jC has a good vertical hitbox but 13f, Bang or Hazama jB are hell for her. Relius jC is a bit slow too, 12f but at least it can cross up, good blockstun and jD cancellable, you can dj2D and fall with another jC and all this is safe on block. -Tsubaki 5C is great, but the recovery, omg that 23f, while relius with his wheel 5C, slow but pretty fast recovery (18f). I mean for it is easier to punish someone low-air dashing with Relius 5C than using Tsubaki 5C. -Tsubaki 2C is just amazing. bit slower than Relius 2C (12f) and he win on range. But this move has fast recovery, jump cancellable and a lot of untech time after CH. -They even nerfed her 236D, from what i saw so far, it gets slower and the range is shorter. Is it just me? I am really disappointed. this was her best move for straight getting in and safe. The recovery was already bad but now it seems worse. and more... I simply love this character, that is the only reason I can give here. She is funny to play and it is not like she is that bad, we are still winning some matches though. Edited January 28, 2013 by FatalCounter
Airk Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) I _AM_ complaining. :P But I think it's at least partially justified. I don't think Ark Sys actually DISLIKES Tsubaki, but I think she's pretty far down the list of characters they pay any serious attention to. All that said, I don't think there's any holy writ that says "characters shall have only one plus on block normal" nor do I think it is bad design for ONE character, especially one that is supposed to be close range pressure, to have more than one option here, so long as the move in question has the usual balancing drawbacks. (Which of course is not entirely true for Hazama, but whatever.); Hazama being stupid is due far, far more to his drives and his specials than it has to do with him happening to have frame advantage off a couple of normals. Edit: Anyway, still waiting for frame data on CP before passing further judgement, but... Edited January 28, 2013 by Airk
Errol Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) A common complaint about CP is that all of the D moves were nerfed, BTW. Their damage went up but they were all otherwise nerfed. Non D's too. 236X : Slower, when it CHs, tends to leave at a distance where stuff doesn't connect. 236D worse recovery, leaves you in front of them sometimes too. 214X : Invulnerability on this is kind of gimped. Other chars had some similar changes. No projectile invuln, and I think head invuln is gone. 22X : No more 22A CHs. 22B CH gives a lot more damage, but 22B is slow and as we have seen, it is never used in any videos probably because of that. 22D nerfs (obvious) J236X: Well, better in that you have the A projectile. but J236D is useless outside of combos with J214D. Both have insane recovery in comparison to things like Jin's ice blades. J236B/j236C for movement and for punching people in the face when they want to disrespect you after JCC are gone. J214X: Landing recovery is worse. Using this to get out of the corner, for example. 46X: D version is pretty pointless outside of following up with 236D. They could've made it a level 2 projectile. It uses a charge. Command grab: no D version. Normals: 5bb: This has a really nerfed hitbox/movement. It will whiff on crouching characters that aren't at point-blank range. From point black, if you have 2a>5b barriered, this will whiff. But damage potential is up. Just that the normals have some of the same problems they have always had. Tsubaki really has no answer against characters with strong low-profile moves besides just running in and 5a'ing. Chars like Lambda or Platinum have 2bs that are stronger pokes than our 5b in their own right, but also low profile 5b. Their disadvantage is that they don't hit jump outs as easily. 6A is slow as hell, and if you know what to look for is very distinctive and easy to block on top of being slow. No jump attack box that can crossup. There's a lot of problems. Konan is 9th dan by the way. Edited January 28, 2013 by Errol
Recommended Posts