[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Daedron]

...

Nevermind then.

EDIT: j.D confirmed for no landing recovery? As seen here (You can clearly see the barrier coming up the moment she lands)

And posted earlier, no recovery in general? As seen here

As for the landing recovery bit, it might be just a "If you were doing j.D as you land it has no recovery, if you release it early and land it does (like in CS1/2/EX)"

I'm still hoping that's not the case however.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Daedron

[Kiba]

6A still has 26f startup. Mainly aimed at those who thought it was faster.

Her command grab is 9f startup. Have fun!

[EXonestar]

Her command grab is 9f startup. Have fun!

This alone makes me too happy~

[FatalCounter]

if Daedron is right about jD not having a landing recovery (and I think he or she is right), that will make me so happy. 9F command grab? crazy! Plz tell us the recovery (more important)

[Kiba]

214B/D has body invulnerability but the invulnerability seems to be dependent on the distance from the opponent. So right next to the opponent, 214B has 11-20f invulnerability, whilist 214D has 11-23f of invulnerability. Both have 21f startup and are active for 3 frames. (Please do not query me on this however as I am still a little baffled about this)

22B and 22D have projectile guard points (ala CS1). However, it's from 13-16f, and 38-41f when fully charged. The startup is 14f and it's active for 3 frames. It slices through projectiles when it becomes active.

[4]6C is 27f startup, D version is 13f startup. Huge difference there.

Command grab has 30f of recovery, and 236236C got a startup nerf. From 9-12f.

[Daedron]

j.D might also function differently if it's being charge cancelled, which is why we don't see more air charge cancels being done.

Or maybe Japan considers doing them too unsafe/not worth it. Even if you can followup after a j.A/j.B hit.

EDIT: Well, looks like we got our answers for 214B/D.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Daedron

[pktazn]

Recovery for command grab is 30. j.D has something in the recovery box like total 14 + 9 something (can't read the kanji but it might be landing) and in OD it's total 10 + 9 something again. But there's a whole slew of notes in the box next to it so it's probably better explained with that.

[Daedron]

Probably, since I'm seeing so many conflicting things right now.

[FatalCounter]

30f of recovery? a bit too much there! I was pretty sure 214B was around 14-16f, still better than 214B/D version of EX. Even 214D get better, now it seems faster and safe on block, but they took off our body and head invincibility! Plz can someona tell us what is the startup, active frames and recovery of 236D?

[Kiba]

In addition I think that 3CC having 1-17f of invulnerability is just, random.

It would be useful in trying to catch players air backdashing, and it may even help avoiding stuff like Mu air backdash > j.C, but it certainly gives players more reason to use the move!

[Daedron]

In addition I think that 3CC having 1-17f of invulnerability is just, random.

It would be useful in trying to catch players air backdashing, and it may even help avoiding stuff like Mu air backdash > j.C, but it certainly gives players more reason to use the move!

More reasons to use it?!

I gotta abuse this shit, it will be the new j.236C!

Fatal: They only got rid of the head invis meaning we can no longer use it as an anti-air. It will still go through grounded normals as it always did.

[pktazn]

Plz can someona tell us what is the startup, active frames and recovery of 236D?

Start-up:19 (16 in EX)

Active: 10 (same)

Recovery: 24 (same)

Also I noticed that the mook doesn't list 6A as a FC but it still does so whoops there.

[FatalCounter]

236D? any info? thanks!

Edit: This confirmed everything, sad they nerfed it, but we will adapt. So it is the same as 236C in Ex + its initial recovery.

Edited April 2, 2013 by FatalCounter

[Daedron]

She just posted it.

[Errol]

214B/D has body invulnerability but the invulnerability seems to be dependent on the distance from the opponent. So right next to the opponent, 214B has 11-20f invulnerability, whilist 214D has 11-23f of invulnerability. Both have 21f startup and are active for 3 frames. (Please do not query me on this however as I am still a little baffled about this)

22B and 22D have projectile guard points (ala CS1). However, it's from 13-16f, and 38-41f when fully charged. The startup is 14f and it's active for 3 frames. It slices through projectiles when it becomes active.

.

In theory both of these are the same. 214b and 214d have longer startups based on how far you are from the opponent. so if the startup is longer, the invuln should be longer too. But it also might mean that the invuln starts up later. Dunno.

like if you charge 22b or 22d, it's not like the guard point changes, all that changes is when the guard point /projectile piercing happens. which is like, 1f before the hitbox comes out.

Similarly 214b/d might be thought of as having invuln 10f before the move goes active, while 214b loses it the frame before the move goes active, and 214d stays invuln for 3 active frames.

[Errol]

and fwiw JD is just as ass in CP as EX. OD doesn't help the landing recovery.

[Surf]

All i care about is how early you can use j.D after you jump

[Airk]

This is pretty weird with j.D data; Maybe the landing recovery can be cancelled into barrier? Also, j.D has never had "recovery" in the air - only landing recovery and a min duration. It's not like 5D, for example, where there are recovery frames after you let go of the button regardless of how long you've been charging, so you can always let go of j.D in the air and block things.

That's the part I'm not sure about actually... I think they're the same but in the EX mook it said, for example 5D, total 18~50F, but in this one it just says total 18 / total 14 (in OD).

This is just them noting that 5D doesn't have a max duration anymore.

[Airk]

All i care about is how early you can use j.D after you jump

You may not get numbers on this - in the past moves with min height just said something helpful like "Has an altitude restriction" in the notes.

[Surf]

Hmm, alright. I find it stupid how huge the gap between the full charged 22D is compared to the other versions. +8 is too much. -1 or neutral wouldve been fine on normal release. But no. Of course not.

Still, they change things that dont particularly "help" her. Or do nothing at all. But we all no this so no point in continuing. C and D DP are surprisngly invincible. If only thr hitbox or animation were different

[Errol]

JD recovery is the same as it has always been. It has landing recovery, 9 frames of it. 14f is how long it takes to recover from a tap of JD in the air. after you land, you've got 9f where you can be whacked.

now, you can just-frame cancel the landing recovery of JD but that doesn't particularly have anything to do with this and doesn't have anything to do with barriering either.

What I think has changed.

a. Minimum height seems lower.

b. Charge rate all around nerfed.

c. can charge cancel air normals.

Another note. I really don't think +8 is too much. Plenty of other characters have stuff like that. Valk 6b is +8 for example, and his 6c is +5. I would've preferred 22d to be +3 uncharged though, and ALSO +8 on full charge.

Char is trash remember.

old 2c

13 5 18

invuln 7f-14f

new 2c

13 3 22

invuln 8f-14f

Give me a break.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Errol

[Airk]

now, you can just-frame cancel the landing recovery of JD but that doesn't particularly have anything to do with this and doesn't have anything to do with barriering either.

What is 'just-frame cancel'? I don't think I've ever heard that term.

Also, is that what is happening here?

Another note. I really don't think +8 is too much. Plenty of other characters have stuff like that. Valk 6b is +8 for example, and his 6c is +5.

It's +5 now? God that's stupid. =(

I would've preferred 22d to be +3 uncharged though, and ALSO +8 on full charge.

I agree.

old 2c

13 5 18

invuln 7f-14f

new 2c

13 3 22

invuln 8f-14f

Give me a break.

Because they realized we had something that was unarguably good.

[Errol]

I don't think so. I see a gap in that video. You can cancel the landing recovery by doing something on exactly the frame upon which you land. this is how combos like J214D>JD>JC>22D/236D/JC/623C etc work.

2c was good but there was better. New 2c is unquestionably average if not below average. There were some AA nerfs but there were also a bunch of aa buffs.

[Airk]

What AAs were better? And also note that "unarguably good" doesn't mean "the best", just that no one is going to suggest that it's not good. Unlike most of our tools, where it's usually case of "well, it's good if they don't..."

[Errol]

the biggest thing to me is that 22b is a 14 frame startup which is slower than 22a was, but the reward is colossal in comparison.

Rachel 6a, wolf b. Rachel's 6a is honestly a better version of tsubaki's 2c and it wasn't nerfed. wolf b is different because you don't have the same access to it though.

For various reasons outside of the strict performance of the move as an anti-air, I like others and don't consider them really worse. e.g. Makoto's 6a, because while it was able to trade, it was invuln on frame 4 instead of frame 7. in CP makoto's 6a is invuln through all of the active frames and recovers as quickly. It hits on 11f instead of 13f which makes it harder to end up blocking, or double jump out of. No followup into 2cc to mess you up. Actually got blocked on the ground? no problem. So to me there's no question what I would prefer in CP when I was leaning towards it anyway. Pretty much most of the above applies to most character's 6as...

Edited April 2, 2013 by Errol