[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Surf]

Come on surf, Jin-niisama is calling for us.

Way ahead of you. We in there

[Airk]

This post I made earlier is worrying.

Now you guys know me. I am not an elitist person nor do I like enjoy being rude, but lemme say this before this gets misinterpreted in the way I don't want it to. I didn't mean that if you're not good that you shouldn't post, that mentality is extremely retarded and anyone like that deserves to be flogged because this is what being a community is all about. Let's take an example. Sure I may be one of the better Tsubakis, but you guys will be surprised as to how much I learn from you guys. Errol is more knowledgable and creative about Tsubaki's tech than I am.

What I mean, is that, when I see something like, it's ridiculous how people can DP through Tsubaki's 5CC, or that 2CC needs to hit crouching, it generally sounds like you need to spend more time with Tsubaki. We were all there in the beginning. I used to complain about Tsubaki's gatlings, but now I've made an effort to vary my blockstrings a lot more, keep it short and sweet, and BatousaiJ has taught me to avoid being afraid of DPs because I'm just sacrificing my pressure potential.

Just thought I'd throw that out.

I'm not offended, but I still disagree with your assessment. Allow me to explain why. We'll use 2CC hitting crouchers as an example.

You vary your blockstrings. Therefore, you say that 2CC does not "need" to hit crouchers. And you are correct.

My blockstrings are not as varied as they could be, and I know that. And in spite of this, I say that 2CC "should" hit crouchers. Now you could look at that as saying "Well, clearly you're playing sloppy and you're looking for a crutch so that when you mash 2CC, you don't get horribly killed for it." And that is a legitimate but uninformed perspective. But this is not about me or how I play. This is about having a character whose tools are useful, and have purposes. 2CC is a combo filler fluff move right now. It actually appears to exist to PUNISH people for mashing 2CC and using this move. Tsubaki has too many moves like this. In fact, you could argue that nearly all of her followup moves (except, perhaps, 3CC, which at least has a noticeably better/different hitbox from its precursor) are like this. I view that as bad design. I also sincerely believe this character should be stronger, and that an important part of making a character good is to make sure all their moves have a purpose, rather than "Well, this character has followup moves on her normals. Why? Because we thought it would be something new to do."

What sort of purpose should these moves serve? Well, it seems like part of what is unique about Tsubaki's followups is that they can chain even on whiff - something few other moves in the game can do. Which is why I suggested giving 2CC legitimate anti-air properties in the same sentence where I suggested - as a lesser valued alternative - making it hit crouchers. Adding some frames of head invulnerability - nowhere near as good as the ones on 2C, I wouldn't think - would give the move and it's ability to cancel on whiff a legitimate purpose in being able to call out certain attempts to bait anti-airs. Making it hit crouchers would at least allow it to serve in some way in blockstrings, especially since it, like 2C, is jump and special cancellable on block. Thereby allowing a more versatile and varied pressure game on the ground - something that a better player than I am would be in a better position to utilize.

So yes. Making 2CC hit crouchers would protect us losers who tend to mash too much. But it's possible that in spite of that, it might still be a good idea. Just because there is an "obvious" self-serving reason for a suggestion doesn't mean that it is the actual reason, nor does it mean the suggestion is invalid.

tldr; Just because good players have learned to compensate for a weakness doesn't mean they wouldn't be getting better results/be playing a better character if that weakness were removed, even if that allows scrubby players to do things that aren't a good idea right now.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Airk

[C0R]

I was under the impression thay 2cc existed so she could chain into a second air unblockable if the first one was blocked. Hence why it lacks head invunerability and a capable hitbox vs crouchers, its an antiair followup.

[Kiba]

If the first one is blocked I would opt for anything else than 2CC. 2CC ocassionally whiffs and leaves you vulnerable for attacks

[TheGreatReptar]

Her followup normals all play into the idea that she's beginner friendly. It's why they cancel on whiff, and it's why most of her followups move her forward a decent bit (whiffed at footsies? Just do the followup and maybe you won't have goofed as hard). Her followups also make confirming combos with her incredibly easy since she has a bunch of moves she can do in a single chain. At a higher level, yea, her followups aren't all that great, since they're mostly there just adding proration, but you should be moving past the training wheels ArcSys set up for her.

[C0R]

Makes sense. I was mentally comparing it to Mu's 6a 5b chain in antiair situations as there are many similarities between the properties. But 5b is quite a bit longer.

[Errol]

There are much more effective newbie tools in the game than Tsubaki's followups.

using 5bb is one of the best ways to get yourself killed, and it's hideously bad in CP. Far worse than just autopilot 5b5c on ragna for example. (Which you have a huge amount of time to confirm off).

2c is another. 2cc is always bad to put out. Lots of other chars have gatlings you can hit braindead and be fine. Mu 6a/5b apparently, Mu 2c/5c. makoto 6a>5b seems that way too.

[Airk]

There are much more effective newbie tools in the game than Tsubaki's followups.

using 5bb is one of the best ways to get yourself killed, and it's hideously bad in CP. Far worse than just autopilot 5b5c on ragna for example. (Which you have a huge amount of time to confirm off).

2c is another. 2cc is always bad to put out. Lots of other chars have gatlings you can hit braindead and be fine. Mu 6a/5b apparently, Mu 2c/5c. makoto 6a>5b seems that way too.

I was pretty much going to say just this - if the purpose of her followups is to make her "newbie friendly" then 5BB and 2CC are even WORSE failures, because they are both practically deathtraps for mashing. In fact, one of my biggest failures in this game right now is that I have a hard time judging when I can hit with 5BB, so I ROUTINELY 5B (hit or blocked) > 5BB (WHIFFFO!) and get punished for it. I've mostly trained myself out of using 2CC outside of combos, but 5BB still gets me.

As "newbie helpers" these moves are actually worse than nothing (and humorously, they seem to have made 5BB even worse in this regard in CP) because all they do is allow you to do things that fail more often than they work.

So yeah. Tsubaki's followups need a reason to exist because they don't help newbies. Even if that was the intent at one point, they don't do it and should therefore be fixed in some way.

[Surf]

Uhh.

Why are you guys saying that their newbie friendly. I know they help with hitconfirming into things but I really dont think you should be labeling them as such. I for one never run into the 5BB whiff problem mainly because

I'm not running around using 5B during neutral much. It's not a good normal

And even then, why am I pressing B again, 5B has enough hitstop to tell ok I should go into 5BB. And you yourself should know the spacing on where, ok, 5BB is going to whiff so maybe I should try 22x.

[C0R]

On the topic of the existance of normal follow ups-

I don't really see how the existance of an option can be a bad thing. Yes the option is terrible, it can almost never be applied in a place where a different option would do a better job, could even say it is not worth using entirely. These are all completely legitimate points.

What I'm hesitant to swallow is that those options hurt the character. Let's take 5bb for example, pretty garbage option in a lot of situations, it sucks for ch confirm, sucks for spaced poking confirm, sucks for prorate and all that good stuff, but simply having it doesn't make the character worse. I'm sure Bang would love to have your dp. No matter how bad it is, because its an option he doesn't have. Its not good, but its there.

Like rachel's 4b. Why use such an unforgiveably slow overhead when you have instant rising j.a? 90% of the time using it outside of combos isn't smart, good or called for, but even still it can be exactly what you need at the time and place.

[Airk]

On the topic of the existance of normal follow ups-

I don't really see how the existance of an option can be a bad thing. Yes the option is terrible, it can almost never be applied in a place where a different option would do a better job, could even say it is not worth using entirely. These are all completely legitimate points.

What I'm hesitant to swallow is that those options hurt the character. Let's take 5bb for example, pretty garbage option in a lot of situations, it sucks for ch confirm, sucks for spaced poking confirm, sucks for prorate and all that good stuff, but simply having it doesn't make the character worse.

No it doesn't, because good players can not use that option. But it DOES make those moves DEADWEIGHT and therefore good candidates for improvement. These moves COULD have a point. Right now, they exist to punish people who are bad at hitconfirms.

And yes, Surfeit, I already said that I have hard time judging the distance on 5BB. You don't have to come in and tell me how I should be able to do it, thanks.

[Kiba]

I'm not running around using 5B during neutral much. It's not a good normal

I would actually commend 5B. Although it's not + on block anymore and can be tackled by attacking her lower body (Noel's 3C for example) it has it's uses in neutral. It confirms into 6C nicely on CH even from max range, it's jump cancellable and it's safe from max range too. The abuse of 5B really depends on the character you are playing against.

Against Tager it is almost a necessaity whereas you'd want to ease the use against Noel or Mu.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I'm kind of on the fence on this issue. Yes, just because a move isn't all that useful doesn't really hurt a character if that character has other, good options. But also yes, a move that serves no purpose and is never useful and may as well not exist does strike me as a detriment to your character. Other characters may have those same options, and they're good

(everyone)

. You don't because yours is bad

Tager

.

[Surf]

And yes, Surfeit, I already said that I have hard time judging the distance on 5BB. You don't have to come in and tell me how I should be able to do it, thanks.

I was speaking in general terms, not to you directly.

pretty garbage option in a lot of situations, it sucks for ch confirm, sucks for spaced poking confirm

5BB is an excellent CH confirm, it has a really nice P1 and is a far far better starter than 5B (5B= 85/5BB= 100). It's relatively easy to frametrap someone with it as well. 5BB may also be -5 but it DOES pull her forward

in EX

, so you can charge cancel and become -2 (which is equivalent to them blocking a 5A) and continue pressure with 5A for example, or you can link a throw. Which I do often, since she pulls herself forward, and it catches a lot more people than you think by surprise. Yea these normals aren't the best but you can find uses for them. Look at their numbers, their hitboxes, what they do/don't do, and go into training mode and experiment. You'll be surprised about what you come up with.

[C0R]

No it doesn't, because good players can not use that option. But it DOES make those moves DEADWEIGHT and therefore good candidates for improvement. These moves COULD have a point. Right now, they exist to punish people who are bad at hitconfirms.

Well to be fair they do serve a purpose, and a very reasonable one at that. They're there to extend and vary Tsubaki's pressure options. Ragna isn't super scary up close because he lacks extensive gatling options, and he can't keep you blocking for long periods of time.

The longer you keep a player on the defensive, the more opportunities they have to make a defensive mistake. On the flipside, the longer you attempt to continue pressure, the more opportunities you have to make an offensive mistake.

If you're only sticking to the aspects of the character that are exemplary and powerful, that's a play-style a lot of players choose. But these tools do serve a purpose, and they do have a point. Tsubaki is supposed to have like every option ever, that's part of her design. She has like what, 20~ odd specials all together, all with different attributes in some form or another? The vast majority of them barely serve a purpose, but they have a niche where it's the right call to use them. That's how the character was imagined.

5BB is an excellent CH confirm, it has a really nice P1 and is a far far better starter than 5B (5B= 85/5BB= 100).

I meant using the 5bb chain to confirm off CH 5b, when you can 6c instead.

Edited January 29, 2013 by C0R

[Airk]

5BB is an excellent CH confirm,

No, 5BB is TERRIBLE CH -confirm-. It's possibly a good counter hit SETUP. Though why anyone would mash after 5B eludes me.

5BB may also be -5 but it DOES pull her forward

in EX

, so you can charge cancel and become -2 (which is equivalent to them blocking a 5A) and continue pressure with 5A for example, or you can link a throw. Which I do often, since she pulls herself forward,

Unless of course they barrier, in which case you actually go backwards.

Look at their numbers, their hitboxes, what they do/don't do, and go into training mode and experiment. You'll be surprised about what you come up with.

People have.

I'm not sure I've ever see someone score a counterhit 5BB. I'm sure it happens, but I've watched a lot of videos...

[Airk]

If you're only sticking to the aspects of the character that are exemplary and powerful, that's a play-style a lot of players choose. But these tools do serve a purpose, and they do have a point. Tsubaki is supposed to have like every option ever, that's part of her design. She has like what, 20~ odd specials all together, all with different attributes in some form or another? The vast majority of them barely serve a purpose, but they have a niche where it's the right call to use them. That's how the character was imagined.

And that's exactly why she's been low tier since she came out.

A character with 400 options all of which are marginally useful is a bad character compared to a character with 10 options all of which are strong. You could REALLY see this in her CS1 design where ALL her different specials had different weird stuff going on, and they were all basically crap.

Also, they've removed about 50% of those specials in CP.

[Surf]

Which is why theyve been condensed in CP. She only has what she needs now.

[Errol]

If Tsubaki didn't have her followups, it's not like she'd just be tsubaki without them. You have to work around the presence of 2cc, by doing stuff like 2c > jump cancel.

I'd rather have them than have them removed. But is true that these followups are like giving someone a rope to hang themselves with.

It's up to you whether you use the rope to hang yourself or just ignore it.

2c>2cc is going to be a real bitch to confirm in CP. Do other characters still have their anti-confirms like mu 2c>5c etc?

5bb is unfortunately always going to be a mixed bag, but I use it a lot in EX and am glad to have it.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Errol

[C0R]

Do other characters still have their anti-confirms like mu 2c>5c etc?

As far as I know, yes. Hakumen still has 5a 5b, Hazama still has 2c 5c, Lambda still has 6a 2c, so on and so forth.

[toanenadiz]

And that's exactly why she's been low tier since she came out.

Tsubaki was low tier in CS2?

[Errol]

Tsubaki was low tier in CS2?

Yeah. Or High B. If you consider that low or not.

[Surf]

No, 5BB is TERRIBLE CH -confirm-. It's possibly a good counter hit SETUP. Though why anyone would mash after 5B eludes me.

I've gotten people with 5BB numerous times. But it's after I've conditioned them a bit. You'll be surprised what some people do when their blocking.

People have.

It really doesn't seem like it.

2c>2cc is going to be a real bitch to confirm in CP.

Yea even delaying 2CC a little and they tech. Time to start mashing it again

[mAc Chaos]

As far as I know, yes. Hakumen still has 5a 5b, Hazama still has 2c 5c, Lambda still has 6a 2c, so on and so forth.

5A 5B isn't that good because they have to be just in 5B range and they aren't always. 5A 5A is better and faster.

[Kiba]

I've gotten people with 5BB numerous times. But it's after I've conditioned them a bit. You'll be surprised what some people do when their blocking.

It's not so much getting people with it, it's more about confirming it into something better. CH 5BB > 5CC is good because it allows you to go for 6CC later in the corner, but midscreen, it has limited use as you're gonna end up using the regular basic combo. There is so much more you could do with 5BB > 6C, both in the corner and midscreen.