GGXXAC+ Rebalancing, Features, and Overall Wishlist Thread

[M.Song]

minor issue but maybe they can fix some of the throw glitches

[Hellmonkey]

I think Faust's unblockable grab move weird air-hit could be removed by lowering the hitbox or something.

Lower the rate on zappa getting his summons after getting hit slightly, because getting dog in this situation has become way too strong, and this actually could be a buff overall because he gets to choose his summons based on time. So more skill, less randomness.

I like Hecatom's earlier idea about having FB drill get rid of little eddie and deplete the eddie gauge in some way, this might be a more necessary nerf than just meter gain for Eddie. Slight meter changes should be enough for characters like testament, potemkin, jam, and slayer.

[Star-Demon]

If you're gonna nerf, go from specific to general.

and I'm 100% serious about D followup. :P

[Amadeus46Art]

Star, I really have to question why you even want those changes. List reasons, please, and how they'd affect Baiken and her matchups.

I'm going to be kind here and pretty much ask that if you can't offer good insight to high level play, and show a good understanding of the balance of the game, the top level matchups, and how the game functions, for you to refrain from posting. Asking questions to start discussion such as "What could we do to make Baiken stronger" or "How can we help Baiken in her matchups against Jam or Potemkin" are good, listing random buffs to your character with no reasons given and no understanding of the game is bad.

This goes for everyone in this thread, obviously.

[reaVer]

Star, I really have to question why you even want those changes. List reasons, please, and how they'd affect Baiken and her matchups.

I'm going to be kind here and pretty much ask that if you can't offer good insight to high level play, and show a good understanding of the balance of the game, the top level matchups, and how the game functions, for you to refrain from posting. Asking questions to start discussion such as "What could we do to make Baiken stronger" or "How can we help Baiken in her matchups against Jam or Potemkin" are good, listing random buffs to your character with no reasons given and no understanding of the game is bad.

This goes for everyone in this thread, obviously.

Wow, chill out dude. Even if he doesn't see or do high level play, he should still be able to voice his opinions or suggestions, even if you feel they are wrong. Heck, if you just go into an argument with him, he might even... learn something!

[Dream Maker]

Bridget was brought up in this thread as being particularly weak (more so than the other 'weak' characters), which you wrote that you agreed with. I just want to correct this notion that Bridget alone deserves attention, when in fact the character can manage quite well at a high level. I would love some balance changes for Bridget as long as it came as a package along with the rest of the cast.

Did not want to sound like only Bridget desserves attention (sorry if it sounded like that, I should have paid more attention) but it's true that I see the character as weak and certainly among the weakest. I totally agree with your point that in case of a rebalance buffing only Bridget and not touching to any other character would make no sense.

BTW I know a lot of people here want the game to come out intact and without a rebalance of any sort, and re-reading answers to my posts it seems that some people think I'm among people who complain about the game unbalances. I'm not, I mean I enjoy this game, I think a very good player can do great things with any character but that the balance is not as good as many people here seem to think it is. I said already a while ago that I'd love to see this game rebalanced because there seems to be room to do so and that would at least bring something new. Let's say I wouldn't mind a rebalance but I'll keep playing even if they don't do one as I always did for the past 5 or 6 years since AC came out. I agree totally that it's not for me or anyone else here to decide what changes would be good or not, we all have our ideas about it and ultimately the decision will come from Arcsys. I trust they'll do it seriously if they decide to.

There is an important fact that IMO leaves the door widely open for a rebalance : they are releasing the game on arcade. So the thing to ask ourselves here is what would the added value of this game be if they only port it to the Nesica system with no changes at all (except lateral bars) both for players and gamecenter managers. Well, to make things short, nothing very fancy.

The players would just probably gain the possibility of having a BBCS-like ranking on Nesica. The gamecenter managers will be able to scrap their old Naomi cabs with GGAC on it. But : Would they replace them by as much nesicas cabs ? Isn't it costly for them to do so ? If they don't do it or replace only a part of them how will the GGAC players react to having to share their cabs with BB or Aquapazza players ? Will they keep coming as before to the arcades to play GG ? I can't even imagine the mess for a gamecenter like mikado that has a dozen or so of double-cabs dedicated to GGAC only. So if they don't bring anything new to the game, we can see there would be little to no benefit, it could even be a plain loss for both the arcade players and gamecenters.

If they decide to scrap their plans for the arcade version and stick only to console port then there would be no need for changes at all, but we have yet to hear about that.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Dream Maker

[reaVer]

Hellmonkey : Ok you made your point pretty clearly and I think I can agree with most if not all of what you said.

Still, something bugs me about taking top level players as a reference for balancing, particularly in this game. I mean most people in these forums just see videos of top level plays, some players like myself just got trashed by top level Japanese players sometimes without even understanding much of what happened, even rarer are the guys like you who received some direct insight from them. What I want to say is that all in all we're still strangers to this level of play as we cannot seriously compete in it. So how could we judge that whatever character is balanced from their point of view ? Why would they even bother making tier lists then ?

I mean to me that would be kinda like saying that Q is a balanced character in Street Fighter 3 3rd strike because some guys like Kuroda or TM manage to destroy almost everyone with him. Maybe you're right but that still feels weird to me. ^^

Not denying Bridget's strength in a team btw, but talking about this game in team play rather than in solo play is as much of a different story than talking about it at top level rather than average or medium-upper level.

I forgot to reply to this. The story of 3s is quite different, we see these players doing well in tournaments, yet even these players say that they can't get any form of consistency going when it comes to winning. Kuroda is known to be good with Q, but he's really strong with just about every character. Heck, RX was even looking at Kuroda just for ideas on Urien.

As for top level play insights, we don't necessarily get our info spoon fed, but some stuff I can make out on my own. If you look careful enough, they aren't doing anything that is overly complicated. And if you just follow the basic rules of making hard situations simple(like turning a 3 way mixup against you into an attack or block mixup) you will start to have a pretty good understanding of the choices that these players make(uppercutting isn't the only example of course).

[Dream Maker]

As for top level play insights, we don't necessarily get our info spoon fed, but some stuff I can make out on my own. If you look careful enough, they aren't doing anything that is overly complicated. And if you just follow the basic rules of making hard situations simple(like turning a 3 way mixup against you into an attack or block mixup) you will start to have a pretty good understanding of the choices that these players make(uppercutting isn't the only example of course).

Yup I can understand that and that's what I'm doing too most of the time. Still there are things you don't really pay attention to until you're confronted to certain situations in practice that only very good players will set up for you. And even if you can grasp most of what happens and why it happens like that while seeing a match vid, reproducing things perfectly takes a lot of practice.

Don't want to offend anyone else's skill or game knowledge here, but to compete seriously with those guys you see on those vids it takes a lot more than trying to understand what they're doing or playing a few games with them, you need to play with them very often and on a regular basis cause these guys play all the time and things are still evolving even now albeit less than when the game came out of course. Well I'm probably only stating the obvious here, but that's basically what I intended to say in the post you replied to. ^^

You make your point on Q and 3S, the main reason I brought that up is that I know many people who play this game seriously for years and talk about it's balance like you would talk about GGXXAC's. IE every character is fine if you're good enough (well tbh if I insist they manage to make an exception for Sean and 12 but that's about it lol). So it's hard to know where objectivity really is.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Dream Maker

[axel]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17759282

The most recent match between FAB vs Ruu

[excelence]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17759282

The most recent match between FAB vs Ruu

As far as i can remember Bridget have advantage on Pot match up ... Fab makes that match depressing as hell

[reaVer]

Yup I can understand that and that's what I'm doing too most of the time. Still there are things you don't really pay attention to until you're confronted to certain situations in practice that only very good players will set up for you. And even if you can grasp most of what happens and why it happens like that while seeing a match vid, reproducing things perfectly takes a lot of practice.

Don't want to offend anyone else's skill or game knowledge here, but to compete seriously with those guys you see on those vids it takes a lot more than trying to understand what they're doing or playing a few games with them, you need to play with them very often and on a regular basis cause these guys play all the time and things are still evolving even now albeit less than when the game came out of course. Well I'm probably only stating the obvious here, but that's basically what I intended to say in the post you replied to. ^^

I'm sure everyone knows that top level play is a totally different ballgame to what we're used to. And I'm sure everyone knows that putting knowledge into practice can be really hard. But none of that takes away what your eyes are seeing. As you become able to discern what choices they make and which ones turn out to be a mistake, you can gain experience and knowledge from watching. So we don't and won't catch all information, but I'm pretty sure that people are getting there.

[Hellmonkey]

- Widen or push back Yousanzen FRC window.

Good idea, because this meter goes to almost guaranteed damage from a very fast TK youzansen anyways so I don't think it would affect balance much, but would give Baiken another interesting way to use meter. As long as the FRC is still before the hit I don't think it will change much.

The character is already heavily dependent on meter so any extra meter options you add would have to be pretty good to make a difference.

Don't want to offend anyone else's skill or game knowledge here, but to compete seriously with those guys you see on those vids it takes a lot more than trying to understand what they're doing or playing a few games with them, you need to play with them very often and on a regular basis cause these guys play all the time and things are still evolving even now albeit less than when the game came out of course. Well I'm probably only stating the obvious here, but that's basically what I intended to say in the post you replied to. ^^

It is this exact evolution of the game which has led Bridget, and the other originally 'weak' characters, to become powerhouses when used by the right person. Every character in GGAC has a lot of variation and mastering the system mechanics is just the first step to playing at a high level, it's the best part of the game.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Star-Demon]

Star, you're bad at this game hence you have no opinions.

Amadeous going in hard!

Actually, really like how Baiken is, and I can't see anything glaringly wrong about her character that isn't just fundamental to her character.

Yeah, I'd love better tools against Pot (I don't really need much versus Jam. I shit on Jam. Maybe Stickbug's could beat me since he'll have more experience), but it's just a bad matchup, but winnable. Potemkin is really good. Baiken is okay. It's just lots of work for Baiken. I don't think Baiken needs much to fix that against matchups versus pot, slayer, or May.

Anyways, I just kinda threw the yousanzen RC out there because anything being made easier is nice. Comments were made about how it's kinda useless for the work you do mastering it, and I'm perfectly comfortable burning extra 25% meter just to have a bigger window using RC instead.

The Dust seal is really worthless. Why seal Dust when you can seal heavy slash? The only character where I'd be like "Okay, that button needs to go" is Jam. Jam's 2D and force breaks would be the only worthwhile thing to use D-seal on.

As for the attack, It puts them up in the air and drops them. Maybe I haven't really played with it enough, but it just knocks down. I think some extra time on that would be nice, since I like both the HS followup attack, the Kick Followup, and even the the similar P and S followups are useful. They all knock down, but the Dust followup would be more appealing if it was different.

I'll take it all back if you show me combos where you can Baku > Sakura > D > combos for either a corner to corner j.d knockdown or 210+ damage. That's worth 50% meter to me.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Star-Demon

[Amadeus46Art]

I was actually discussing this last night. Probably the best character to seal dust against is Eddie, to turn off his unblockables. But otherwise it's not that great. If you're gonna seal Jam's moves, I'd seal Slash. Still keeps her from doing FB puffball and overall weakens her poking and anti-air game.

Also, Hellmonkey, you listed Jam as a character you wanted to see her meter gain be nerfed a bit. I was wondering what moves or such you'd tone down. I was mostly thinking her 5H and maybe 6H, since while the Bakushuu followups give great tension gain (around 7.20!), it's only on hit, so you'd only get the tension from the Bakushuu by mashing puffball in neutral.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Amadeous

[Blade]

When the hell did this thread get so strict? Amad, it's just a wish list. It's not a court session.

And it may just be me, but I think there's different ways to play a character, even if the "optimal way" has been found for each by the best. What one player wishes for may be better suited to their style rather than simply on the character as a whole.

I'm a Ky player, and I know this is true. If I could, I'd adjust his Gatling tree a bit, just so he has a few easier combos off Vapor Thrust > Kiru. And a few more things after his Stun Raise Forcebreak. That's my style though, that doesn't always account for everything.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Blade

[Star-Demon]

I was actually discussing this last night. Probably the best character to seal dust against is Eddie, to turn off his unblockables. But otherwise it's not that great. If you're gonna seal Jam's moves, I'd seal Slash. Still keeps her from doing FB puffball and overall weakens her poking and anti-air game.

When I made my list, S is exactly what I use on Jam. I came to the same conclusion you did. S takes away the FBs and the poking. 2D isn't as big a deal as long as I block low.

[Hellmonkey]

Also, Hellmonkey, you listed Jam as a character you wanted to see her meter gain be nerfed a bit. I was wondering what moves or such you'd tone down. I was mostly thinking her 5H and maybe 6H, since while the Bakushuu followups give great tension gain (around 7.20!), it's only on hit, so you'd only get the tension from the Bakushuu by mashing puffball in neutral.

This is a great question, I think 6H and followup are easy choices but aside from those it's hard to pick. I think that this type of meter gain nerf would really help tone down the strength of stuff like corner 6H loop, which then leads to having FB puffball/meter available for the mix-up and combo. Bakushuu followup tension nerf would hurt her quite a bit outside of that I would imagine, I think Jam is okay from neutral right now.

It's this kind of situation where the average damage is just way too high and the character gets a tension lead that I think could have some work done. Same with Slayer combos leading to mix-up and tension for DOT.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Amadeus46Art]

I mostly thought of 5H and 6H especially due to her basic ground BnB, 5K c.S 5H(3) 6H 6P 5H(3) 6H 2D. The two 5H's alone give nearly 25% meter, which is a bit ridiculous, especially with how powerful Jam becomes with meter. Her FRCs are pretty gimmicky but still strong, and I don't think I need to say anything about FB Puffball.

I would be interested in seeing how changing the FRC timing on her 236P would affect her now though. Currently I don't see it used a lot, though it looks like it'd be a great tool for pressure.

[xlolxlolx]

When the hell did this thread get so strict? Amad, it's just a wish list. It's not a court session.

And it may just be me, but I think there's different ways to play a character, even if the "optimal way" has been found for each by the best. What one player wishes for may be better suited to their style rather than simply on the character as a whole.

I'm a Ky player, and I know this is true. If I could, I'd adjust his Gatling tree a bit, just so he has a few easier combos off Vapor Thrust > Kiru. And a few more things after his Stun Raise Forcebreak. That's my style though, that doesn't always account for everything.

ky's fine the way he is, but his problem is that his mixup is piss easy to react to and average damage sucks balls

[Kyosuke Kagami]

As long as Ky's COCONATZ shit remains the same, I'm happy with that.

Oh, and IMO Testy's Badlands first hit being untechable, at least make that shit scale a lot. I still cry @ that move (not saying it's lol cheap or abusable, but it touches my nerves... a lot more than ZATO SAMA's Summon Eddie from #R).

[Hellmonkey]

ky's fine the way he is, but his problem is that his mixup is piss easy to react to and average damage sucks balls

This is not correct, Ky actually has some decent okizeme and pressure, but setting it up isn't obvious. I would be interested to hear from some Ky players about what specific changes they might like.

[Hecatom]

i know that im not a pro, but i would like to have the old CSE back, and some buffs on his damage output, overall i feel that he doesnt need major changes

[Blade]

Like I said before, I want more options after Vapor Thrust > Kiru...maybe more float/wall bounce time to do stuff.

I'm tired of doing 2P > 5S > 2H all the damn time.

Also, a few more things to do after j.214D wouldn't hurt either.

Also Proration after Ky's stagger moves into Dust is ridiculously bad.

[The DMK]

Indeed, Ky's pressure game is pretty solid as far as I'm concerned. He also has decent pokes and anti-airs and a good long-distance game. I actually see him as a prototypical example of a lower-tier character who can still do well but has to work more simply because of his damage output, not because of a serious lack of tools and good options. His pressure isn't without holes, but I don't find it difficult to keep momentum going and stay close with meter.

I'm not sure how these ideas would actually pan out but here are some:

-Less prorate on throws and maybe GS, just to give a bit higher average damage. More with the throws than GS.

-I was thinking if he had a normal that was an overhead. Somewhere between Millia's 6K and HOS' 2H. Something neutral, if maybe mildly disadvantageous. Maybe instead make GS a little faster and safer? When I throw out a GS it isn't part of my 'regular mix-up', it comes out when I truly think I can catch somebody with it. It would be nice if it were fast enough that it wouldn't be such a huge BLOCK HIGH as soon as you see it, and if it were safe enough that it couldn't be easily punished on most blocks.

If GS were more effective Ky's mix-up would be that much better with a legitimate overhead option, and he would get more damage opportunities. Actually I could do without a prorate reduction, just make it a better tool.

Also, if memory serves me correctly in AC Ky doesn't have shin akuma. I wouldn't mind getting that back.

Edited May 11, 2012 by The DMK

[xlolxlolx]

yes he does have ok-ish pressure and pretty decent oki, but a good amount of his mixups can be reacted to like whiff j.hs into low mixup is pretty easy to see same goes for crossup air dash backward j.s

pressure's nothing remarkable without tension

having the old 6hs back would be really nice since it had alot more utility overall