Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 no effort i dont think that means what you think it means lol might as well say that about any DP Lol? You Hakumen players are so spoiled, like CSEX Hakumen is perfectly balanced or something. I've played Spark a lot, I've played Hakumen myself quite a bit. There are quite a few situations in the game that Hakumen gets out for free, no effort because of frame 1 active unpunishable counters. They are stupid and deserve to be nerfed/reworked. Removing depth from the game by having an absolute answer to another character's tools is not okay.
YukiBlue Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Yeah Hakumen really slipped under the hate radar in CSEX. He was all kinds of bullshit yet nobody gave him hate despite losing close to 5K for blinking. Drives are a really cool idea on paper. But when you press that D button the game should force you to commit some serious recovery frames. Not just a "This is active for like 4 fucking hours and good luck punishing this shit son. I hope you have the reactions of a Cheetah on some fierce drug" Edited August 11, 2012 by YukiBlue
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 lol litchi players are always salty as shit whenever hakumen comes up, keep qqing about that 5-5 matchup
TD Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 gonna have to jump on the l hate haku bandwagon and say this nigga's drive is absolutely retarded and i'm glad it's getting nerfed. all he would need at this point is cs1 j.d and he would literally be unstoppable, unapproachable and still unokiable
pianomaster1988 Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Hearing the rumors about a pretty young vigilante, Amane searches for him to add him to his troupe of traveling actors. Thats explain his astral, or DD, or whaterver it is.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Ok, I'm going to try and talk this out without having a flamewar over characters. Yeah Hakumen really slipped under the hate radar in CSEX. He was all kinds of bullshit yet nobody gave him hate despite losing close to 5K for blinking. Drives are a really cool idea on paper. But when you press that D button the game should force you to commit some serious recovery frames. Not just a "This is active for like 4 fucking hours and good luck punishing this shit son. I hope you have the reactions of a Cheetah on some fierce drug" How are we not committed to our counters? What counters are you referring to that are "unpunishable"?
Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) lol litchi players are always salty as shit whenever hakumen comes up, keep qqing about that 5-5 matchup I'm not salty at all, I just remember quite a few of your posts and how unwilling you are to think Hakumen could ever be "too good" or have anything considered stupid. Get over it, lol. Edited August 11, 2012 by sG
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) I'm not salty at all, I just remember quite a few of your posts are unwilling you are to think Hakumen could ever be "too good" or have anything considered stupid. Get over it, lol. I've been a fan of CT Hakumen since forever. dat S tier Anyway, I see the same people always complaining about his counters every BB release, even though they nerf it every time too. They give it the same "reworking" you've demanding each time. Just because you can't do the same oki you run on everyone else on him or the same pressure doesn't mean it's dumb. It just means you have to be more careful, but a lot of people's approach to nerfing things is "I don't like this because it makes me have to play better, nerf it plz." I'm kind of astonished people can say it's too good after getting nerfed 4 games in a row. People just don't understand anything about his counters. It's a legit complaint when a character's mechanics shut down a character so hard it turns into Tager v Tao, but not when it's 5-5 and each has their own advantages. And it's always been relatively even between those two characters. Edited August 11, 2012 by mAc Chaos
Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 I've been a fan of CT Hakumen since forever. dat S tier Anyway, I see the same people always complaining about his counters every BB release, even though they nerf it every time too. They give it the same "reworking" you've demanding each time. Just because you can't do the same oki you run on everyone else on him or the same pressure doesn't mean it's dumb. It just means you have to be more careful, but a lot of people's approach to nerfing things is "I don't like this because it makes me have to play better, nerf it plz." I'm kind of astonished people can say it's too good after getting nerfed 4 games in a row. So completely shutting out a character's options indefinitely by just having the counter (this doesn't effect just Litchi, hope you realize this) isn't harmful to the game's depth? I don't like it because it has absolutely nothing to do with being more skilled, it means the player that isn't Hakumen has to play better than Hakumen himself. Notice how I don't give a shit about CT Hakumen, I'm talking about CSEX, where he also has a rather ridiculous j.B and an unmatched abare.
Narroo Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Do you by chance mean an official new Touhou game released by ZUN or a doujin group release? There are many doujin releases, but none from ZUN that I know of. I haven't been doing much. It's mostly all Isuna. I also thank him to because he is the one that got me the information for the loketest. I'm just testing Tager, because he is also my main and I'm just trying to get the Tager information out as a fast as possible to fellow Tager players. I've also been trying to get Bullet information and Azrael, but I'm still too unfamiliar with them. Other than that it's all Isuna doing everything. ^ All Isuna. Lol. By the way Isuna, everytime I go to Hey, I always wonder what you'd look like. Haha. However, I am trying to fit my point-and-shoot into my "man purse" right now to try to get a shot up close. It's not sitting in there so well. The real cabinets up close are nothing to what you guys are seeing at the spot Isuna is getting though. It's really hard to try to sneak in shots however where the cabinets are. They are gorgeous, in my opinion. Sorry for any mistakes in my typing. Really tired. It's 2:23 AM right now in Tokyo. I have to wake up in 3 hours. From ZUN; yeah, I guess nothing; but thanks! Also, got a warning for that post for being off topic, so let's talk about...CP! What do you think Amane's Astral turns everyone into? What happens to Tager, Valkenhyn, and Hazama and what not?
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) So completely shutting out a character's options indefinitely by just having the counter (this doesn't effect just Litchi, hope you realize this) isn't harmful to the game's depth? I don't like it because it has absolutely nothing to do with being more skilled, it means the player that isn't Hakumen has to play better than Hakumen himself. Notice how I don't give a shit about CT Hakumen, I'm talking about CSEX, where he also has a rather ridiculous j.B and an unmatched abare. Noo, you quoted it before I got my edit in. I don't give a shit about Extend Hakumen. You could make that argument about DPs too. It stops normal pressure and oki, and affects it just by having it in the first place. Except normal DPs are actually better since you can rapid out if it's baited and don't have to pick high or low, and can't get thrown. Sure, it affects how other characters have to play, but the same is true for everybody else dealing with other characters and the kinds of things they have. That's what makes a varied game with lots of different matchups. Edited August 11, 2012 by mAc Chaos
Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Noo, you quoted it before I got my edit in. I don't give a shit about Extend Hakumen. You could make that argument about DPs too. It stops normal pressure and oki, and affects it just by having it in the first place. Sure, it affects how other characters have to play, but the same is true for everybody else dealing with other characters and the kinds of things they have. That's what makes a varied game with lots of different matchups. DPs don't shut down Kokushi, they don't shut down Lambda's wheel, they don't shut down Mu's bomb oki (she can charge them now though) among other things. If it required more effort on Hakumen's part than just pressing 2D as soon as he gets up and then repeating it 2 or 3 times to catch the rest of the move, sure it'd be okay. But as is it doesn't cost him anything, there's no risk because you can visibly see the setups before they happen and even if you don't get grabbed by the counter you still don't get to punish him. There are certain situations where it's just thoughtless, that's what needs to be fixed.
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 DPs don't shut down Kokushi, they don't shut down Lambda's wheel, they don't shut down Mu's bomb oki (she can charge them now though) among other things. If it required more effort on Hakumen's part than just pressing 2D as soon as he gets up and then repeating it 2 or 3 times to catch the rest of the move, sure it'd be okay. But as is it doesn't cost him anything, there's no risk because you can visibly see the setups before they happen and even if you don't get grabbed by the counter you still don't get to punish him. There are certain situations where it's just thoughtless, that's what needs to be fixed. I agree that it's easy to hit 2D and counter those things, but on the other hand, there's no reason that Lichi's oki setups should be getting preference over Hakumen's way to get out. It's fine if Haku can neutralize some aspect of her offense if she has other ways to handle the matchup, and she does. Same with other characters. The only way to deal with the issues you raised would be to remove frame 1 activation, or having him be invincible all the way through, and doing that would just ruin the counter itself. I don't think it would be worth basically removing his drive to make it a little more convenient in those situations. Although I guess making it blockable is another way, but that wouldn't stop Hakumen from being safe from the oki. Just would stop you from getting hit by the counter.
Sophisticat Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 [...] There are certain situations where it's just thoughtless, that's what needs to be fixed. Why should it be fixed? The characters you mention can still outzone and corner Haku. Those are specific instances where Haku has risk-free applications for counters, but this isn't the case outside of them since they can be baited.
Superkenon Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Match-ups, yo. It's not so much having to play "better" against certain characters as it is having to play "differently". Which I think is totally cool. This game would be boring if the same strategy worked on every opponent. <-- testimony from a guy who gets stomped by hakumen and accepts it as "my bad!!"
Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 I agree that it's easy to hit 2D and counter those things, but on the other hand, there's no reason that Lichi's oki setups should be getting preference over Hakumen's way to get out. It's fine if Haku can neutralize some aspect of her offense if she has other ways to handle the matchup, and she does. Same with other characters. The only way to deal with the issues you raised would be to remove frame 1 activation, or having him be invincible all the way through, and doing that would just ruin the counter itself. I don't think it would be worth basically removing his drive to make it a little more convenient in those situations. Although I guess making it blockable is another way, but that wouldn't stop Hakumen from being safe from the oki. Just would stop you from getting hit by the counter. Well again, Litchi isn't the only one affected by it. Other characters have setups completely shut down by Hakumen just having the counter on frame 1. For Litchi, when it does happen (say you didn't know he could do that) you just blew 50 meter and he did basically nothing for it. Making the whiff punishable would fix it entirely. Some characters still wouldn't be able to do setups or they would still lose valuable time from the setup, but it's not a 100% STOP hand. It's just an unenjoyable aspect of the matchup. Nobody really feels good doing it or being on the receiving end of it. EDIT: Also again if this weren't CSEX I was talking about, the counters aren't such a big deal. It's a culmination of the character in this version, he really doesn't even need the counters at all to win the large majority of his matchups.
Lord Pwnge18 Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) DPs don't shut down Kokushi, they don't shut down Lambda's wheel, they don't shut down Mu's bomb oki (she can charge them now though) among other things. If it required more effort on Hakumen's part than just pressing 2D as soon as he gets up and then repeating it 2 or 3 times to catch the rest of the move, sure it'd be okay. But as is it doesn't cost him anything, there's no risk because you can visibly see the setups before they happen and even if you don't get grabbed by the counter you still don't get to punish him. There are certain situations where it's just thoughtless, that's what needs to be fixed. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're not a fan of P4A. Also, just gonna put my own thoughts into this; when Haku has his astral ready, is it wrong to say that he basically controls the match from there? All he has to do is wait foe the opponent to make a move, and he can just block any projectiles that go his way. There's nothing you can do at that point besides hope you don't pick a wrong time to attack or have any gaps in your blockstrings, and I would imagine that's how Hakus would want it. It's just an unenjoyable aspect of the matchup. Nobody really feels good doing it or being on the receiving end of it. >opinions Edited August 11, 2012 by Lord Pwnge18
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Well again, Litchi isn't the only one affected by it. Other characters have setups completely shut down by Hakumen just having the counter on frame 1. For Litchi, when it does happen (say you didn't know he could do that) you just blew 50 meter and he did basically nothing for it. Making the whiff punishable would fix it entirely. Some characters still wouldn't be able to do setups or they would still lose valuable time from the setup, but it's not a 100% STOP hand. It's just an unenjoyable aspect of the matchup. Nobody really feels good doing it or being on the receiving end of it. EDIT: Also again if this weren't CSEX I was talking about, the counters aren't such a big deal. It's a culmination of the character in this version, he really doesn't even need the counters at all to win the large majority of his matchups. Well, I'd rather nerf other aspects of the character than the counters. It sounds more like you just have a different opinion on his design. He's supposed to be a defense oriented character that gets zoned out, and every character can handle that. So, as far as being able to beat him correctly, everything is fine. You're not supposed to be able to have free reign when pressuring him; that's when he is supposed to have an advantage compared to everyone else. For characters who have setups like Mu and Lambda with their lasers and wheels, they don't need it against him in the first place since they're supposed to be zoning him out. Locking him down on top of it would just make an already unfavorable matchup even worse. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're not a fan of P4A. Also, just gonna put my own thoughts into this; when Haku has his astral ready, is it wrong to say that he basically controls the match from there? All he has to do is wait foe the opponent to make a move, and he can just block any projectiles that go his way. There's nothing you can do at that point besides hope you don't pick a wrong time to attack or have any gaps in your blockstrings, and I would imagine that's how Hakus would want it. No, the other player will just hop to the other side of the screen and wait for you to attack, or for the timer to run out. Or bait it. You will usually be spending the stars on attacking anyway.
Nakkiel Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 >opinions Opinions, yes. But they're shared by an incredibly large % of the people who play BB at high level. Well, I'd rather nerf other aspects of the character than the counters. It sounds more like you just have a different opinion on his design. He's supposed to be a defense oriented character that gets zoned out, and every character can handle that. So, as far as being able to beat him correctly, everything is fine. You're not supposed to be able to have free reign when pressuring him; that's when he is supposed to have an advantage compared to everyone else. For characters who have setups like Mu and Lambda with their lasers and wheels, they don't need it against him in the first place since they're supposed to be zoning him out. Locking him down on top of it would just make an already unfavorable matchup even worse. Exactly. He's rather far from his design of a defense-oriented character in this revision, if you ask me. That's why something needs to go.
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 His counters already got nerfed into the ground ages ago. ALLOW ME TO CHRONICLE CT: He did around 5k off his counters, and they were the quickest. CS1: He got a j.D buff, but his other counters took a proration hit. Average damage was 4-5k if you spent 4 stars, but otherwise a normal combo would do 3k. CS2: j.D buff removed, his counters got proration reduced AGAIN, however he gets a star when he lands a counter. (Actually, I forget if that was always the case.) Average damage is 2.5k. EX: One more round of damage reduction. Average damage is 2k, you can get 3k for 3 stars off 6D. Meanwhile, the punishment for a fuck up with your counter is still in the 3-5k range. What more do you want from us. Take my FIRST BORN
Dragkonias Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 Yeah. Hakumen's counters are fine. No where as stupid as they were in CT/CS1 and even then I thought they were manageable.
toanenadiz Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 So I didn't see any discussion about this in particular, so I figured I would ask now. If Haku's counters are blockable now, what would change? You still couldn't do projectile oki against him since he is invincible throughout the whole animation unless they changed that as well, right? And it would be nice if Rachel couldn't tech and wind herself. But that is a just a selfish wish so she couldn't escape Lambda's oki. Not that Lambda is in CP...
Lord Pwnge18 Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 No, the other player will just hop to the other side of the screen and wait for you to attack, or for the timer to run out. Or bait it. You will usually be spending the stars on attacking anyway. I suppose this is why I don't play Haku, but I guess you're right. Opinions, yes. But they're shared by an incredibly large % of the people who play BB at high level. [citation needed] Sorry if I sound like an ass, I'm just having fun haha.
mAc Chaos Posted August 11, 2012 Posted August 11, 2012 So I didn't see any discussion about this in particular, so I figured I would ask now. If Haku's counters are blockable now, what would change? You still couldn't do projectile oki against him since he is invincible throughout the whole animation unless they changed that as well, right? And it would be nice if Rachel couldn't tech and wind herself. But that is a just a selfish wish so she couldn't escape Lambda's oki. Not that Lambda is in CP... If you run up to him trying to do mixup while he counters, you won't get hit, if you run up... and block instead.
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