BBCP Story Thread [Old]

[harmless kitten]

I am honestly exasperated by people who think Jin's character development is suddenly invalidated by him still being NIISAAAAN. Jesus, the guy has grown a lot compared to Calamity Trigger era Jin or the Jin in Wheel of Fortune. The Jin there wouldn't care about saving Tsubaki--it'd be all Nii-san, Nii-san, Nii-san, all the time. Go play his story in CS again! He still wants to kill Ragna! That never changed! It's just he places saving Tsubaki as a higher priority, and actually willing to put his Ragna hunt on hold in order to save her. That's huge from Jin!

[kylehyde]

Think of it this way, you get the best of both worlds. Hakumen Jin who is calm, powerful, and a nice person.

And Bat shit crazy Jin who is the polar opposite.

Besides, if Jin wasn't as crazy as he is he would be boring.

[Chaoschao222]

Hakumen's not exactly a nice person... he's kinda a dick to a lot of important characters, and cynical or neutral to others. Except his waifu Tsubaki.

[harmless kitten]

Think of it this way, you get the best of both worlds. Hakumen Jin who is calm, powerful, and a nice person.

And Bat shit crazy Jin who is the polar opposite.

Besides, if Jin wasn't as crazy as he is he would be boring.

Hakumen. Nice. The guy who is extremely condescending to most characters (Tsubaki, Bang, and Noel are the only ones he's arguably nice to), and the guy who is hellbent on killing "the ultimate evil," our hero Ragna.

I don't think it's possible for any iteration of Jin older than 18 to be nice. A good person, yes, but not nice lol

[mAc Chaos]

What was he like in Wheel of Fortune?

[kylehyde]

Well he's an ass to the people who are generally asses themselves. I still think he's an ok guy.

[harmless kitten]

He's still pretty cold to Tsubaki... I think Tsubaki and Makoto talk about that Jin does like her, because if he didn't, he wouldn't even tell Tsubaki she had chocolate all over her face. But he's certainly not as nice as he was during the Academy days. I get the impression that he's been very off since he came back from the war, in WoF and other timelines. In CS, he didn't even know Tsubaki was part of Zero Squadron, which makes me think they haven't talked much since her graduation.

He runs off once he hears of Ragna, prompting Tsubaki to chase him down. And then, well, yeah.

I think Jin is the type of person to take for granted the things (or people) he cares about. Ragna and Tsubaki both are good examples of this.

[Tokkan]

What was he like in Wheel of Fortune?

Hakumen? Same as always.

Jin? Treated Tsubaki sort of like he does Noel, except for the fact that he didn't actually want to kill her like he did with Noel.

[mAc Chaos]

He's still pretty cold to Tsubaki... I think Tsubaki and Makoto talk about that Jin does like her, because if he didn't, he wouldn't even tell Tsubaki she had chocolate all over her face. But he's certainly not as nice as he was during the Academy days. I get the impression that he's been very off since he came back from the war, in WoF and other timelines. In CS, he didn't even know Tsubaki was part of Zero Squadron, which makes me think they haven't talked much since her graduation.

He runs off once he hears of Ragna, prompting Tsubaki to chase him down. And then, well, yeah.

I think Jin is the type of person to take for granted the things (or people) he cares about. Ragna and Tsubaki both are good examples of this.

Hakumen pretty much says as much himself.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I think you can consider Hakumen a "good guy" in same vein as Rorshach (sp?) from Watchmen

[darkblade77]

I thought it was interesting that Izayoi uses the same term as Hakumen does to refer to Ragna in her intro.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hakumen pretty much says as much himself.

Because he has done and experienced the same thing himself. He knows what Jin is thinking/dealing with more than anyone else.

I think you can consider Hakumen a "good guy" in same vein as Rorshach (sp?) from Watchmen

I don't see how you could consider him a villain. The only "good guy" he wants to kill is Ragna, and it's for fairly justified (extreme) reasons. Though his aesthetics and oratory mannerisms are that of a traditional villain, his morals and sense of duties are that of a hero. Plus he is the leader of a legendary band of heroes lol.

EDIT:

I thought it was interesting that Izayoi uses the same term as Hakumen does to refer to Ragna in her intro.

It's the same way a brainwashed mu12 referred to him as well. He is the inheritor of the Black Beast's powers. And Tsubaki is basically being controlled by Izayoi now.

[Tokkan]

And Tsubaki is basically being controlled by Izayoi now.

Completely false. When Izayoi is initially awakened, she's still under the Imperator's mind control. Some time between than and when Rachel fights her in arcade mode, she breaks free of the mind control through some as yet unknown means. Either way, as Izayoi she is still Tsubaki like Mu is still Noel.

[Moy_X7]

Mmm, I wonder if Saya will refer to Ragna as the Black Beast and not his actual name. I can see it happening lol.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I think you can consider Hakumen a "good guy" in same vein as Rorshach (sp?) from Watchmen

Antihero is the term you're looking for.

Both Jin & Hakumen are assholes, Jin more so due to Yukianesa's influence but even without it they were still pretty cold, and indifferent to most of the things around them, mostly because of their upbringings in the Kisaragi household. His only real friend growing up was Tsubaki, so it makes sense that he'd treat her nicely...mostly.

[harmless kitten]

I think you can consider Hakumen a "good guy" in same vein as Rorshach (sp?) from Watchmen

Oh, Hakumen is a hero, no doubt. He intensely believes that his actions are just, and in a way, he is right--Ragna is an aberration. It just so happens that Ragna is the protagonist of this story, so all of Hakumen's attempts to kill him are antagonistic actions. I'm glad Hakumen isn't as psychopathic as Rorschach.

I'm glad that Mori says he's going to make the explanations more clear. I doubt they're going to get rid of all the quantum physics buzzwords, but hopefully stuff quantum superpositional manipulation and wave function collapse won't come up again (i.e., they're not just going to throw them out randomly with no explanation...).

[BlackYakuzu94]

Oh, Hakumen is a hero, no doubt. He intensely believes that his actions are just, and in a way, he is right--Ragna is an aberration. It just so happens that Ragna is the protagonist of this story, so all of Hakumen's attempts to kill him are antagonistic actions. I'm glad Hakumen isn't as psychopathic as Rorschach.

Even without the antagonism towards Ragna, he's still a condescending dick, Six Heroes be damned.

[Kanashimi]

Hell I'm surprised that some of the characters aren't insane I mean look Jin as we are on the subject:

First his childhood wasn't the best while some of this was his fault the main probelm was the Terumi incident, after he had to become a respected noble while dealing with the loss of his family however I think Tsubaki played a massive part on keeping him sane during those years. Next was the academy now named as a future clan head and the responsibilities of the student council, this is also when he meet Noel bringing back the memories as Jin himself said that he was forgetting. Anyways during these years the Ikuruga war happened Jin was deployed and were he fought Tenjou and won then promoted to Major I mean war is war that has to have a lasting effect on anyone and from here we know what happened to him.

I must admit while Jin isn't perfect the development shown without the games has been what you expect from a young soldier with a bad childhoo, who wouldn't have a breakdown from that? Sure its no reason to be an asshole but he has shown that he does still care and is willing to put himself out for other people even if it's in the coldest way possible.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Oh, Hakumen is a hero, no doubt. He intensely believes that his actions are just, and in a way, he is right--Ragna is an aberration. It just so happens that Ragna is the protagonist of this story, so all of Hakumen's attempts to kill him are antagonistic actions. I'm glad Hakumen isn't as psychopathic as Rorschach.

Same here though Rorschach is badass :3

Even without the antagonism towards Ragna, he's still a condescending dick, Six Heroes be damned.

Isn't that also why we love him so?

Ragna: "Who the hell are you?"

Hakumen: "The end of you."

Hell I'm surprised that some of the characters aren't insane I mean look Jin as we are on the subject:

bad example, since a lot of us consider Jin insane. Though your point does hold merit.

@tokkan, tsubaki was being controlled by Saya but after awakening Izayoi that's no longer the case. So I guess now she just wants to kill Noel out of envy right?

[Tokkan]

@tokkan, tsubaki was being controlled by Saya but after awakening Izayoi that's no longer the case.

No, it's clear from both Tsubaki's and Jin's arcade modes that Izayoi starts out under the Imperator's control, too. When Jin fights Izayoi, she says her sword is the Imperator's sword.

[NovaFortuna]

Say, well sorry for bringing this again, but didn't have time to reply before. This is not a rant, btw, but my apologies if it comes out as one:

I think the problem that makes Jin's development seem halted is not only he still has the niisan mde untouched, he is overall the same outside wanting to chase down Tsubaki. While it is understandable if you think that they aren't rushing things so his growth comes as well done, I think it wouldn't have hurt to have some hints he is getting better; for example tone down the nisaan mode a little bit, or reduce a bit the jerkyness. Then again in CS he went on a whole new level of epic in just a few scenes, so I guess some misunderstood (myself included) some moments of inspiration as some geniune instant growth. But also, he did leave to train with Jubei for a while, so it makes sense to think the old cat actually helped him to overcome a few things in their time together, use his powers or something, everything pointed out he was working on his issues directly aside his epic moments in CS, so the slow process comes as confusing given all.

However, this "pacing" argument you can use to justify's Jin's "slowed" development doesn't seem to apply to Noel who is shown to be quickly overcoming her fears and becoming brave. That's not a bad thing, she really needed it and I really like she's actually becoming competent.

Say, this is more of a personal thing, but personally what makes me worry a bit too much about his growth is his overall "small" role in the story so far, despite being promoted as the game's third main character after Ragna and Noel. In CT he was posed as a threat to be swatted aside by Ragna, in CS it wasn't until the very end he went into the main heroes wagon, but so far there have been only setups and people saying "you will be important"m but nothing really has paid off. Now comes CP and while he is in the quest to save Tsubaki, everything points Noel will basically be the one to get it done, no mentions to the power of order, no mentions to his involvement in the Ikaruga war, even his romance with Tsubaki has been barely explored by his side of the story, we get many thoughts on it from Tsubaki though. If Jin wasn't promoted as a main character there would be no problem, though. Interviews that mention how Ragna and Noel and Saya will actually have relevance and keep leaving Jin out despite he is also part of that family can make you really paranoid with this whole deal (then again I am aware that's a personal issue).

You can argue that Hakumen covers Jin's lack of importance, but I dunno, I really can't unsee those two as completely different characters, not only they have different personalities, they exist in the same time and space, they have different lifes that shaped them differently.

I am sorry for the long post and for insisting on this point. Carry on, guys.

[Kanashimi]

No, it's clear from both Tsubaki's and Jin's arcade modes that Izayoi starts out under the Imperator's control, too. When Jin fights Izayoi, she says her sword is the Imperator's sword.

She also still has her red eyes and mid fight she has a internal conflict showing that she is still there somewhere and she isn't in control.

[Volt]

Well i just watched CS Jin's story and at the end of it Jin goes to the cauldron to save Ragna and it's also important to say that in the true ending Jin actually was speaking like a normal person with Ragna while Hakumen said that the next time they meet he would kill him so Jin should at least stop screaming like a girl when he sees Ragna.

[Yaaay]

Ditto Tsubaki. I feel nothing for this woman. She's pissed because the man she's codependent on (I won't call whatever that is "love"-- it's needy, clingy desperate stalker shit) isn't paying enough attention to her so... she just says fuck it all and decides to turn 180 degrees into a psychopath who'll kill her friends? Izayoi's influence or not, screw her! I don't feel an ounce of humanity with her character. She's pathetic, like Noel was. And lets not even talk about Litchi. All three of these women sicken me to no end. You know I can understand someone who's life sucks and they want to kill themselves. I can understand someone who's desperate and trying to save someone they love. But anytime someone's like "I want to destroy the world or everything and everyone I've ever loved and who has ever loved me because x doesn't love me!", there's no way I or any sane human being can relate to a character like that. That's the kind of thinking psychopaths have. I am relatively sane and stable. When writing a story, you don't write your characters which people are suppose to empathize with them... in a way to where no one can empathize with them. It's just bad writing.

I can't say much about Noel and on this point I agree with you, but Litchi and Tsubaki I find two very interesting characters. People like to say that Tsubaki has been 'brainwashed' but I'd rather call her indoctrinated. From a very young age, she has been taught about serving the Imperator, the NOL, order, justice etc. These have become her norms and her values in which she thinks, just like we think in our morals and values. I see Jin not only as her love interest, but also as an interruption or 'break' in her normal life. Jin was someone she could be a child with, she could forget about etiquette for a while, call him Jin-niisama instead of Kisaragi-san, she could be a bit more free, it's like a whole other for her... Now couple that with her romantic feelings for Jin, no wonder she's so attached to him. Or at least, that's how I see it.

Secondly, I find it a bit strange you only mention Jin as a reason of becoming a 'psychopath', if anything the cause of her change of heart is her devotion to the Imperator and not (only) her Jin-niisama. I find it ironic that you say no one can emphatize with them when there a lot of people on this world who are exactly like, if not worse than, she is. Tsubaki is the depiction of an extremist, in this case an extremist with moral struggles who started doubting some of her beliefs and tried to fight them even, only to afterwards follow them even more drastically than she already did after seeing her God: The Imperator.

Litchi is a completely different story and many people seem to dislike her story but I don't understand why... imo she's one of the saddest characters in the game whose trying to make up for the mistakes she has made by taking risks while attempting not to do any further damage. She's very stubborn and the question is whether that's a good thing or not. Isn't one of the lessons Ragna's story has been trying to teach: 'no matter how bloody or no matter how bad things are looking for you, don't ever give up' (Rachel said something like this)? We are looking down on Ragna because his story has ended and it has had a good end because he continued fighting. That's great right, despite everyone telling him NOT to fight Terumi because there's simply no possibility he could win. This actually sounds a bit similar to Litchi's situation, except she's much more assured that there MUST be something to cure her and her adventure has not ended yet, so she's still fighting.

There's actually more I'd like to say about her (I find her quite an interesting character) but I'm tired and I'm just going to spare it (for now). :P

[BlackYakuzu94]

Say, well sorry for bringing this again, but didn't have time to reply before. This is not a rant, btw, but my apologies if it comes out as one:

I think the problem that makes Jin's development seem halted is not only he still has the niisan mde untouched, he is overall the same outside wanting to chase down Tsubaki. While it is understandable if you think that they aren't rushing things so his growth comes as well done, I think it wouldn't have hurt to have some hints he is getting better; for example tone down the nisaan mode a little bit, or reduce a bit the jerkyness. Then again in CS he went on a whole new level of epic in just a few scenes, so I guess some misunderstood (myself included) some moments of inspiration as some geniune instant growth. But also, he did leave to train with Jubei for a while, so it makes sense to think the old cat actually helped him to overcome a few things in their time together, use his powers or something, everything pointed out he was working on his issues directly aside his epic moments in CS, so the slow process comes as confusing given all.

However, this "pacing" argument you can use to justify's Jin's "slowed" development doesn't seem to apply to Noel who is shown to be quickly overcoming her fears and becoming brave. That's not a bad thing, she really needed it and I really like she's actually becoming competent.

Say, this is more of a personal thing, but personally what makes me worry a bit too much about his growth is his overall "small" role in the story so far, despite being promoted as the game's third main character after Ragna and Noel. In CT he was posed as a threat to be swatted aside by Ragna, in CS it wasn't until the very end he went into the main heroes wagon, but so far there have been only setups and people saying "you will be important"m but nothing really has paid off. Now comes CP and while he is in the quest to save Tsubaki, everything points Noel will basically be the one to get it done, no mentions to the power of order, no mentions to his involvement in the Ikaruga war, even his romance with Tsubaki has been barely explored by his side of the story, we get many thoughts on it from Tsubaki though. If Jin wasn't promoted as a main character there would be no problem, though. Interviews that mention how Ragna and Noel and Saya will actually have relevance and keep leaving Jin out despite he is also part of that family can make you really paranoid with this whole deal (then again I am aware that's a personal issue).

You can argue that Hakumen covers Jin's lack of importance, but I dunno, I really can't unsee those two as completely different characters, not only they have different personalities, they exist in the same time and space, they have different lifes that shaped them differently.

I am sorry for the long post and for insisting on this point. Carry on, guys.

Strangely enough, I somewhat agree with this, you'd never guess Jin was even meant to be one of the main characters along with Ragna & Noel considering how little he's done compared to those two. Mori didn't even mention him when he said who was going to be important or not in that recent interview.