[P4A] Mitsuru Kirijo Beginner Q&A Thread

[Jyosua]

It takes getting used to. The hitstun is longer if you fully charge, but I don't generally charge at all when doing 4/5/6B>2AB>C Bufula in midscreen combos. I find it easier to time if I just wait for the right moment. In whip combos, I found that the slight extra damage isn't worth it, except for j.D/j.DD starters.

[Julimano]

It takes getting used to. The hitstun is longer if you fully charge, but I don't generally charge at all when doing 4/5/6B>2AB>C Bufula in midscreen combos. I find it easier to time if I just wait for the right moment. In whip combos, I found that the slight extra damage isn't worth it, except for j.D/j.DD starters.

I see, I will train a little more to see if I can grasp the right timing, thanks!

[LegendaryRath]

Honestly, I don't even use 5D that much anymore. It's great for punishing personas, but it rarely gets me any hits. If you manage to land it then you should just use a regular uncharged 4B to confirm. If you have a lot of trouble doing the full 5DD combo, then I would suggest excluding any parts you are uncomfortable with. Another option would be to set up some easy oki by doing 5DD > 4B > [2B] > 2DD > 4AB > D Bufula. You can follow it with j.B , 2A, sweep, throw pressure/baits, ect.

[Julimano]

Honestly, I don't even use 5D that much anymore. It's great for punishing personas, but it rarely gets me any hits. If you manage to land it then you should just use a regular uncharged 4B to confirm. If you have a lot of trouble doing the full 5DD combo, then I would suggest excluding any parts you are uncomfortable with. Another option would be to set up some easy oki by doing 5DD > 4B > [2B] > 2DD > 4AB > D Bufula. You can follow it with j.B , 2A, sweep, throw pressure/baits, ect.

nice, thanks!

[Jyosua]

I use 5D a lot. It's useful after throwing someone or when they try to zone you. I hit with it a lot too. You just have to be sure not to overuse it.

[LegendaryRath]

I use 5D in those same situations, but lately I've been trying to mix it up a little. Many people are in the habit of ducking right after I burst, throw, ect. Sometimes I'd rather use a B Coup, which is safe and plus at that distance. IAD j.D is pretty good too.

[_Sey]

What are Mitsuru's "best" oki setups?

Watching vids I've noticed that more often than not everyone just does "common" or "easy" setups such as sweep > c bufala, throw > ex bufula, b droit > d bufala, does she really not get much more than such setups? are there any safe jump setups/dp safe setups I should be aware off?

How's 5C as a pressure tool?

It's special cancellable, it gatlings to 2C and I don't think the opponent can do anything about 5[C] (even on IB) unless he gets pushed back/out of range.

Playing around with it a bit I think it's a decent tool to push back the opponent a bit and setup safe droits and sweep (or summon marin karin against characters that don't have long pokes).

Am I missing something about the move? is it not as good as I think?

[Lord Knight]

first off, bufula is amazing ok, and should not be overlooked.

sweep > c bufula usually happens because the mitsuru dropped a combo.

throw > sb bufula is only legit on throw CH

b droit > d bufula ender in the corner is extremely powerful. the opponent can't late tech or roll and is forced to take an unseeable high/low.

5c is quite a good pressure tool, and it's use varies depending on when you use it in your strings. you cant get a safe droit off 5c.

[_Sey]

Is d bufula corner oki "chara specific"?

I've noticed that off a d bufudyne I can always get a 3hit D bufula oki but that's not true if I end my combos with 4 > 2AB > B droit (holding 1), am I doing it wrong?

Against Chie 4 > 2AB > B droit seems to put d bufu a bit too far behind her to make it work as d bufu will just whiff, while by doing 4 > B I'll get it infront of her thus getting oki.

Against Kanji 2AB > B droit will still put d bufu behind him but he still get to block 2 hits anyways so w/e

I'm referring to combos like xx > 5B > Sweep > B droit > 2A 2B C Bufula > 4B(held) > Sweep > B Droit, of course there's not such problem with, like, the corner throw combo since I'm forced to end it with 4 > B droit anyway

So... should I end my combos with just 4 > B droit depending on the character I'm fighting if I want oki without ending with D bufudyne or am I doing something wrong?

edit: err, nvm just noticed that if I put d bufu behind it doesn't even hit meaty, I guess I should always drop the sweep and end with B droit then (unless, again, I'm doing something wrong).

Edited May 18, 2013 by _Sey

[Lord Knight]

yes, you need to do held 4b > b droit

[susano]

Does anyone use Mitsuru on pad? I'm interested in learning her as a sub and can do her charge moves pretty well. It's just combos that will take time. I want to know if she's alright on pad or not. Idk if I asked that question before but I'm curious.

Edited July 12, 2013 by susano

[TheWhiteVoid]

Does anyone use Mitsuru on pad? I'm interested in learning her as a sub and can do her charge moves pretty well. It's just combos that will take time. I want to know if she's alright on pad or not. Idk if I asked that question before but I'm curious.

I'm playing her on pad right now, it seems like a manageable task to me.

[susano]

I'm playing her on pad right now, it seems like a manageable task to me.

Okay, good. I was just curious.

[AchedSphinx]

Okay, good. I was just curious.

A Liz main learning Mitsuru will soon understand why the match up is so horrible and then suddenly the Liz main becomes a Mitsuru main. I'm just joking. You shouldn't find any trouble with Mitsuru. Her moveset is user-friendly, but people aren't fond of playing charge characters so it will take some time to get used to it. The thing you will have most trouble with are her confirms. Knowing her combos is great, but confirming into them is much better.

[kupo_asami]

Hi, I have several questions to ask, not sure where to post them since it covers several things including matchups and general stuff, so decided to ask them here.

1. how to get around netplay lag? quite often I have trouble doing simple stuff like going from sweep to coup droit or pick the opponent up from the ground in the corner or sometime I would get yellow hits in the middle of a long fatal counter combo.  Play only with opponents with fast connection? input the command before the character even execute its current move?  I have no problem performing majority of the combo flawlessly in the combo thread listed, but during online matches, I feel like a total noob.

 

2. would it be consider disrespectful or a scrub to always DP your way out when on the defense?  everytime my opponent is crouch blocking my attacks, they always DP.  I personally almost never DP, unless it'll put me into awakening.  or is it okay to just use DP whenever.

 

3. worst matchup for me so far is narukami and naoto.

naoto- spam shoots from a far, set traps, occasionally send out persona.  can never get close via air dashes or hops. how to counter against someone who spams bullets?

narukami-  spam swift strike and raging lion, then set up oki.  for me, its like a guessing game, guess wrong 5 times, you lose the round... is this something where I should just DP out?

sorry for the long post

Thanks

[Synyster17]

Hi, I have several questions to ask, not sure where to post them since it covers several things including matchups and general stuff, so decided to ask them here.

1. how to get around netplay lag? quite often I have trouble doing simple stuff like going from sweep to coup droit or pick the opponent up from the ground in the corner or sometime I would get yellow hits in the middle of a long fatal counter combo.  Play only with opponents with fast connection? input the command before the character even execute its current move?  I have no problem performing majority of the combo flawlessly in the combo thread listed, but during online matches, I feel like a total noob.

 

2. would it be consider disrespectful or a scrub to always DP your way out when on the defense?  everytime my opponent is crouch blocking my attacks, they always DP.  I personally almost never DP, unless it'll put me into awakening.  or is it okay to just use DP whenever.

 

3. worst matchup for me so far is narukami and naoto.

naoto- spam shoots from a far, set traps, occasionally send out persona.  can never get close via air dashes or hops. how to counter against someone who spams bullets?

narukami-  spam swift strike and raging lion, then set up oki.  for me, its like a guessing game, guess wrong 5 times, you lose the round... is this something where I should just DP out?

sorry for the long post

Thanks

ughh i can try bro.

 

1. i like to play with people who are only 2 bar and up. that would help. netplay timing is way different than offline. just keep doing ur combos and u will get better at it.

 

2. i would say so if it works. if u keep getting dp out of ur block strings and such then u should bait more to try to draw them out so u can use that godlike 2a block cause they will burst and u will block and punish. lol but really that happens alot.

 

3. ur questions should go to the character mu thread honestly. for naoto try using the wip a little more. narukami i would say try not to get knocked down and watch out for 2b alot. it will mess u up. but in all seriousness u should ask these questions in the MU thread for their character. this one you can ask any question you want about yu and how to deal with him http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5347-p4a-mitsuru-vs-yu-narukami/ and this one is the same, but for naoto 

 

so yeah i think that is about it really. i gave the best answers i can, but im sure people like rath and reako and the like will have different opinions and such.

if u need any help don't hesitate to ask and see you online.

[mixedmethods]

1. how to get around netplay lag? quite often I have trouble doing simple stuff like going from sweep to coup droit or pick the opponent up from the ground in the corner or sometime I would get yellow hits in the middle of a long fatal counter combo.  Play only with opponents with fast connection? input the command before the character even execute its current move?  I have no problem performing majority of the combo flawlessly in the combo thread listed, but during online matches, I feel like a total noob.

If you're not fully dropping the combo, you're getting off easy with lag. I've had 20-30 seconds of screen freeze with occasional slo-mo shots during matches. You can see if playing against opponents with fast connexions solves the issue. It may also be a gap between "I can execute this flawlessly in the lab and against Hell-level CPU" and "my brain pulls a 'you can stay, but I'm out of here' whenever I fight online." (No, I don't suffer from the latter problem.) Test and see. Can't give you more than that, unfortunately.

 

2. would it be consider disrespectful or a scrub to always DP your way out when on the defense?  everytime my opponent is crouch blocking my attacks, they always DP.  I personally almost never DP, unless it'll put me into awakening.  or is it okay to just use DP whenever.

Mitsuru's DP is one of her best reversal options. But use it cautiously, because better players are almost certainly baiting you and will punish you hard. Whatever you do, don't be predictable. LordKnight has an amazing defensive game and mains Mitsuru, so check out his videos for ideas for how to deal with pressure and reversal options. I don't even play Mitsuru much but I study LK's performances for his insane defence. (Not slighting his offence, but he handles being put in the corner like it's not even a disadvantage.) Mitsuru has great normals and huge damage potential, so don't be afraid to block if you think anything else is going to leave you on the wrong end of a combo -- you will get your chance to go for the kill, so don't get caught mashing buttons. Use the air version as much as possible, as it's safer, and watch your hitbox against Naoto and Chie since their DPs are counters. Beware the deceptively lengthy active frames on Yosuke's DP.

Some characters have godly DPs. Some don't. If your opponent does have a good DP, then expect them to use it and make sure you know what your punish options are so you can take that tool away from them.

If people are DPing out of your pressure, you need some combination of the following three things: (1) True block strings and/or better mix-ups; (2) Better reactions and reads; and (3) To punish that shit. Narukami's DP is air unblockable on first hit and he can cancel into Ziodyne or, if he's in Awakening, Cross Slash. Sounds great, but he's completely vulnerable from the back, so you need to cross under his DP and teach him that his DP is your chance to put him in a world of pain. There's nothing like watching Narukami fire off Ziodyne while his opponent is behind him. (And I say that as someone who subs the guy.) If he doesn't have 50 meter, punish a blocked or whiffed ZIOCAR/Swift Strike, because it's massively unsafe without the meter to OMC. &c.

3. worst matchup for me so far is narukami and naoto.

naoto- spam shoots from a far, set traps, occasionally send out persona.  can never get close via air dashes or hops. how to counter against someone who spams bullets?

narukami-  spam swift strike and raging lion, then set up oki.  for me, its like a guessing game, guess wrong 5 times, you lose the round... is this something where I should just DP out?

Narukami wants to put you in the corner so he can run his oki game. You have a few meter-dependent options: don't let him put you in the corner, spend resources to get out if you need to (Guard Cancel or Burst), or disrespect him. He has no normals that are plus on block and a lot of his game is unsafe if he mistimes his safe jumps, which is your cue to go in. His 50/50s are obnoxious so go to training and try the following with Narukami as your opponent: set health to "Regenerate," turn off Awakening for both of you, start with empty meter, and make Narukami a CPU opponent. Anywhere from 40-60 works for testing, then raise the difficulty as needed. After that, head to the corner and let the CPU do its thing. You'll see his high-low options with adjustments based on how well you've reacted to it (if you block a high-low, expect the CPU to start trying two lows, then a high, etc.), along with throws, sweeps, etc. You can do the same thing in Versus with the goal of stalling the rounds to time out. You're going to lose, but the goal is to survive after being put in the corner. You may start recognising the CPU's patterns, but you'll at least know what Narukami's mix-ups look like. Same thing with Naoto: practise blocking Double Fangs but spend time in Versus learning how to get in against her, preferably with the difficulty cranked up. Again, you're going to lose, but you need to test your safe/unsafe approaches.

The match-up threads should have more specific info, but the methods above are how I train to keep improving fundamentals and raise my game, so it may help.

[AchedSphinx]

Hi, I have several questions to ask, not sure where to post them since it covers several things including matchups and general stuff, so decided to ask them here.

1. how to get around netplay lag? quite often I have trouble doing simple stuff like going from sweep to coup droit or pick the opponent up from the ground in the corner or sometime I would get yellow hits in the middle of a long fatal counter combo.  Play only with opponents with fast connection? input the command before the character even execute its current move?  I have no problem performing majority of the combo flawlessly in the combo thread listed, but during online matches, I feel like a total noob.

 

2. would it be consider disrespectful or a scrub to always DP your way out when on the defense?  everytime my opponent is crouch blocking my attacks, they always DP.  I personally almost never DP, unless it'll put me into awakening.  or is it okay to just use DP whenever.

 

3. worst matchup for me so far is narukami and naoto.

naoto- spam shoots from a far, set traps, occasionally send out persona.  can never get close via air dashes or hops. how to counter against someone who spams bullets?

narukami-  spam swift strike and raging lion, then set up oki.  for me, its like a guessing game, guess wrong 5 times, you lose the round... is this something where I should just DP out?

sorry for the long post

Thanks

 

If you're having problems with lag stick to playing against people with 2 or higher bars. I don't drop combos often, even in lag. Mitsuru is pretty lenient. But if it's laggy assume you will drop throw combos and 2A pick ups in the corner.

 

It is not disrespectful or scrubby to DP. It is a reversal. It is necessary. If you don't DP, the person will assume you never DP, and they will disrespect you and get away with crazy things. You should DP, but don't do it often. Use it to let them know that you actually DP. That's important because if they try to bait a DP or slow down their pressure you can use that to escape if you read it correctly. Not DPing can also be a defensive option.

 

For Narukami you want to space him properly and know what his blockstrings are. Sometimes Narukami's like to do 5B > 2C or something in the corner, well Mitsuru can sweep under that. Also, Narukami's will rarely toss out swift strike (at least the good ones) because Mitsuru can punish it with 5A. Check out Yu's frame data for raging lion. Mitsuru can reliably punish the A versions, I think the B versions are plus on block but they're slow so it should be possible for reaction DP or roll even. If you get knocked down you will have to be good at blocking. Sometimes you can get away with DPs if he decides to roll through or IAD cross up. Don't let him try to reset or anything, once his oki is over Mitsuru can poke out with 5A, throw, jumping, etc.

 

I don't really have much experience with Naotos since she is pretty rare. Most cases, j.B kills her traps so you can use that to get in. Since her bullets beat out droit, you will have to play a slower game and try to push Naoto to the corner. You only really need to land a good hit and Naoto will be in some serious trouble. 5D whip is pretty good, though 2D whip is probably the best since Naoto's tend to stay in the air. Watch out for the common Naoto shenanigans like SB roll out of the corner and that kick thing. A neat and powerful tactic you should consider using is, if they're in the corner, back step > 5A counter > sweep. Pretty powerful to bait grabs and also gets you time to react to Naoto doing her DP.

 

If you want to bait DPs, consider using 2C, sweep feint, or 5C during blockstrings. I hope that helps.

[Reako]

If you're having problems with lag stick to playing against people with 2 or higher bars. I don't drop combos often, even in lag. Mitsuru is pretty lenient. But if it's laggy assume you will drop throw combos and 2A pick ups in the corner.

 

It is not disrespectful or scrubby to DP. It is a reversal. It is necessary. If you don't DP, the person will assume you never DP, and they will disrespect you and get away with crazy things. You should DP, but don't do it often. Use it to let them know that you actually DP. That's important because if they try to bait a DP or slow down their pressure you can use that to escape if you read it correctly. Not DPing can also be a defensive option.

 

For Narukami you want to space him properly and know what his blockstrings are. Sometimes Narukami's like to do 5B > 2C or something in the corner, well Mitsuru can sweep under that. Also, Narukami's will rarely toss out swift strike (at least the good ones) because Mitsuru can punish it with 5A. Check out Yu's frame data for raging lion. Mitsuru can reliably punish the A versions, I think the B versions are plus on block but they're slow so it should be possible for reaction DP or roll even. If you get knocked down you will have to be good at blocking. Sometimes you can get away with DPs if he decides to roll through or IAD cross up. Don't let him try to reset or anything, once his oki is over Mitsuru can poke out with 5A, throw, jumping, etc.

 

I don't really have much experience with Naotos since she is pretty rare. Most cases, j.B kills her traps so you can use that to get in. Since her bullets beat out droit, you will have to play a slower game and try to push Naoto to the corner. You only really need to land a good hit and Naoto will be in some serious trouble. 5D whip is pretty good, though 2D whip is probably the best since Naoto's tend to stay in the air. Watch out for the common Naoto shenanigans like SB roll out of the corner and that kick thing. A neat and powerful tactic you should consider using is, if they're in the corner, back step > 5A counter > sweep. Pretty powerful to bait grabs and also gets you time to react to Naoto doing her DP.

 

If you want to bait DPs, consider using 2C, sweep feint, or 5C during blockstrings. I hope that helps.

Mitsuru can sweep under Narukami's 5B> 2C? I had no idea, but I doubt that will come in handy much, considering they tend to go for a 5C first. Anywho, I didn't know, so I learned something new. Thanks for the info, this actually helped me a bit too.

[AchedSphinx]

Mitsuru can sweep under Narukami's 5B> 2C? I had no idea, but I doubt that will come in handy much, considering they tend to go for a 5C first. Anywho, I didn't know, so I learned something new. Thanks for the info, this actually helped me a bit too.

 

They sometimes do it to fish for Fatals since he can get good damage off it. 5C cancels into 2C also. It's a hard read so you'd need to know that the Yu player has a tendency to do this. They'll usually do it if they don't have oki set. But yeah, things like 2B and such can beat the sweep.

 

I think something like 5C > 2B is something that would be good to remember. If he does 5C > 2B he can go into 5B or 2C which Mitsuru's sweep goes under. He's unlikely to do sweep without a hit confirm his only other option would be a special such as raging lion or swift strike. You can rule out swift strike. Raging lion is a high risk/low reward kind of thing in the corner against Mitsuru because she can grab after blocking and he doesn't want that to happen. So logically, if he does 5C > 2B you can assume he will either do 5B or 2C afterwards if he wants to continue pressure or jumping away to be safe.

[kupo_asami]

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I'll look at other character tutorial video/threads to better understand their combo stuff.

never a fightng genre fan, but decided to get better because I really like the series.

[LegendaryRath]

I think everyone did a pretty good job covering most of your concerns, so I'll avoid repeating the same things.

 

3) If you are having trouble getting in on Naoto players who are trying to zone you, I would suggest trying to do the same thing. Zoning in general is not meant to "open you up" or "mix you up". It's mostly meant to allow the player to play safe, as well as punish the other player for taking risks (usually revolving around trying to approach). Unless the opponent has a life lead, there isn't usually a compelling reason to risk trying to "get in". Besides, Mitsuru isn't a rushdown character in the first place. She has long, safe normals, which are usually best used to do the same thing that these Naoto players are attempting to do to you.

 

When I think about it, it's sort of funny when I see people play characters in ways that contradict their strengths. Mitsuru is best at playing it safe, and she lacks a good mixup game (her only "real" overhead requires 50 meter to confirm). So when I see people trying to mix people up with her in risky fashion, I can't help but smile.

 

I guess my TLDR point here is to be OK with taking things slow. While I wouldn't necessarily say Mitsuru is a fantastic zoning character, where she can't pressure the opponent at full-screen, I would argue that she has the one of the best Neutral games in persona right now. At the very least, it can't hurt to see how the naoto players change things up once they realize that you aren't going to kill yourself by trying to constantly advance.

[Reako]

They sometimes do it to fish for Fatals since he can get good damage off it. 5C cancels into 2C also. It's a hard read so you'd need to know that the Yu player has a tendency to do this. They'll usually do it if they don't have oki set. But yeah, things like 2B and such can beat the sweep.

 

I think something like 5C > 2B is something that would be good to remember. If he does 5C > 2B he can go into 5B or 2C which Mitsuru's sweep goes under. He's unlikely to do sweep without a hit confirm his only other option would be a special such as raging lion or swift strike. You can rule out swift strike. Raging lion is a high risk/low reward kind of thing in the corner against Mitsuru because she can grab after blocking and he doesn't want that to happen. So logically, if he does 5C > 2B you can assume he will either do 5B or 2C afterwards if he wants to continue pressure or jumping away to be safe.

I honestly had no idea of any of this. Thank you, I will be trying this out... Though most Narukami's I fight don't really go for decent pressure, but just try to sweep every second, lol. But as soon as I fight a good Narukami and am stuck in the corner, this will be the first thing I try. You have my thanks.

[AchedSphinx]

I honestly had no idea of any of this. Thank you, I will be trying this out... Though most Narukami's I fight don't really go for decent pressure, but just try to sweep every second, lol. But as soon as I fight a good Narukami and am stuck in the corner, this will be the first thing I try. You have my thanks.

 

Good Yu's are pretty rare. I know you're from EU, but try to play against Edurado Hook, his Yu is pretty sweet. And since you mentioned this, I got to thinking about Yu's pressure a bit more. 5C > 2B > 5B is gapless, Mitsuru can't sweep there because 2B has 14 frames of block stun and 5B has 9 frames of start up. So 5C > 2B > 5B is a lot more logical for a Yu player. So if we think that way, 5C > 2B > 5B > 5C would be the follow up since Yu can do 5C twice in a block string. Yu can't go back into 5B from 5C here and 2B will be risky because it can whiff due to the spacing of the block string, so after that final 5C, 2C is much more logical.

 

He also has some options after 5C > 2B > 5B such as doing raging lion instead of 5C or swift strike. Like I said before, raging lion is risky against Mitsuru in the corner. If she blocks it, she will back throw, Yu is in the corner eating 3k dmg plus oki. Not a place he wants to be.

 

Anyways, this probably goes beyond the Q&A thread but I hope it helps.

[kupo_asami]

Hi, I would like to ask about the ice oki, more specifically after the ice hits.

From the combo videos I found online, these are the 2 more common mid-screen combos right?

low-2A, 6B, 2B, 2DD, AoA, D bufula
high-j.B, jDD, C bufula, 5B, 2AB, D bufula

 

but what about the corner variations?

1. gets hit by the ice all 3 times (counter hit)

2. gets hit by the ice all 3 times (no counter hit)

3. blocks high and gets hit low

4. blocks low and gets hit high

 

Would 3 and 4 be the same as the mid screen or is there another damaging variation since its the corner?

Thanks