[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Chaoschao222]

Possible, but similarly, what would be the point of adding all those properties to them if the only thing that can get past them is Projectile invul anyways?

I can't see 4D going through a move like Sickle Storm in BBCP...

Guess we better hope some Noel tries to 4D through Comet Cannon at AX tomorrow

[Bibiquadium]

She can hence why 4A 2D and 2B 4D problem solved.

[Errol]

I don't really see any other way it could be though. Wouldn't using 4d vs sickle storm just get you hit anyway so you wouldn't see anyone do it?

[Bibiquadium]

But isn't 5D > Orb considerated as legit oki aka not as mashable CS1/2 style or its barely any better than Extend.

[Chaoschao222]

Wouldn't using 4d vs sickle storm just get you hit anyway so you wouldn't see anyone do it?

It would because Sickle Storm has F property and 4D doesn't have F invul. From what I gathered from your post, Projectile invul would override the F vulnerability in BBCP.

She can hence why 4A 2D and 2B 4D problem solved.

What? 4A?

[Errol]

It would because Sickle Storm has F property and 4D doesn't have F invul. From what I gathered from your post, Projectile invul would override the F vulnerability in BBCP.

What? 4A?

I mean because the invulnerability runs out, and comet cannon and sickle storm both have a lot of active frames. I mean, ok, you don't get hit by comet for 20 frames or whatever it is, then you eat a combo.

But isn't 5D > Orb considerated as legit oki aka not as mashable CS1/2 style or its barely any better than Extend.

Orb is legit, I think the reasons orb is legit are:

1. 5d untech time was hella buffed. It's totally easy to RC 5d and pickup with 2b even midscreen now.

2. People end combos early. You have to end combos early to keep the untech time of 5d alive.

Upshot is that I don't see any reason why 6b> orb would be any more legit than it is now, which is to say it isn't.

[Chaoschao222]

I mean because the invulnerability runs out, and comet cannon and sickle storm both have a lot of active frames. I mean, ok, you don't get hit by comet for 20 frames or whatever it is, then you eat a combo.

Yeah, it runs out, but Sickle Storm will immediately hit 4D. I can't see BBCP 4D surviving where CSE 4D died against it. I think using 4D anywhere in Sickle Storm's active frames would still lose due to the F property. Maybe playing Noel and all her invul nonsense has fucked with my head on this subject

A lot of this is just odd... If they wanted only P invul to beat any projectile, then there's no reason to add the other properties from what I can tell. And certain high or low projectiles now losing to some P invul moves are just weird to visualize now :p

[Errol]

Maybe they didn't add them. Behind the scenes it could just be that they have projectile prop and that is it now. There is no difference between that and having HBFP on all of them, maybe it is just how the mook team measured it.

I mean, I'm not sure, but the only thing we can be sure of is that stuff like 3c dies to projectiles now. You could either say that is because it doesn't have projectile invuln or because it doesn't have foot invuln but they kind of both mean the same thing. Except if there is stuff that goes through projectiles still, but not thru lows. Which there is. I don't know.. Could mean that there is something that differentiates stuff like kishuu and 4D that is not written within the mook. But as we have it, since kishuu goes thru stuff, we should believe 4d will too. and carnage scissors, etc etc.

[Bibiquadium]

6B > Orb is only legit when; the opponent doesn't have a DP or 50 heat or lolhakumen.

[Kujikawa]

6B > Orb is only legit when; the opponent doesn't have a DP or 50 heat or lolhakumen.

Why would you do 6B > Orb over 5D > Orb exactly? What's the benefit?

[HiagoX]

The benefit of doing 6B > Orb is forcing a neutral tech. However, as it gives you more disadvantage it's not really all that good and both late tech and roll options can be easily punished anyway.

There's absolutely no reason to do 6B > 236A instead of 5D > 236A in BBCP; look at how japanese players stopped finishing combos with 2D > 6B > 236A two months after the game was out.

[Bibiquadium]

Why would you do 6B > Orb over 5D > Orb exactly? What's the benefit?

I'm in America, I don't have CP yet. I already mentioned before that 5D > Orb was better in CP not even 2 post before.

[Kujikawa]

I'm in America, I don't have CP yet. I already mentioned before that 5D > Orb was better in CP not even 2 post before.

Sorry, I was talking about Extend and previous versions, I should stated that.

Thank you for your answer HiagoX.

[Arc Raizen]

The more and more I watch Makoto fights and the more I think about her tools, the more I can only reason that her low tier standings are due to under-utilization of her tools.

On the surface, her average damage is enough to compete with most other characters with the added bonus of her having reliable mid-screen combos and an easy ability to switch sides on the fly (after 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3)). Her ability to corner push seems stronger with more usage of Shooting Star mid-combo and its added Wall Stick. Her health isn't so low and defense isn't so terrible as to worry about losing a burst in favor of OverDrive like Tao or Carl, while said OD is one of the most versatile in ability to extend combos for full corner-to-corner push or add an easy 1-1.5k at minimum on almost any combo. Asteroid Vision's trajectories seem better for getting out of oncoming pressure and safer approaches, especially for Lightning Arrow, allowing it to be even somewhat viable in neutral game. There are a few key things I keep seeing, or not seeing, that coupled with everything just mentioned make her deserve higher tier placement.

Japanese players just don't seem to be taking advantage of her style or new tools. All I see are them sticking to basics or unwilling to be aggressive (which is slightly expected for the standard Japanese style). Far too often to I see Makoto bursting on the first hit of a 2-3K combo early. There's no reason to be wasting burst early in a match with Makoto: she can take a decent hit or 2 and if you save it for a clutch OD you can pull a win out like nothing, but no one is utilizing OD more than once everything 2-3 matches. Cosmic Ray gives a safe way to approach at mid-distance, where Makoto has suffered in neutral game, if the opponent isn't expecting it. No, you can't throw it out all the time, but once or twice a round will start making opponents think twice about their approach which can play a huge factor in some exchanges. On hit, Cosmic Ray will push the opponent back to the corner, which is always great for Makoto, and on the rare Counter Hit it wall bounces for a follow up and corner push (and it has P1 of 90). Lander Blow adds insane amounts of versatility to her block string:

........... A - Stop and Block..........Mars Chopper (high)................Level 1 - Safe on block

214A < C ----------------------< Lander Blow------------------< Level 2 - Frame Trap

............B - Cross-Up.................\ Star Gazer (low).....................Level 3 - Very safe on block - easy block-string reset

............................................... | Infinite Rush (combo Ender)

And yet, I can go 5 matches easy without seeing a single Makoto use Cosmic Ray and I haven't seen a single use of Lander Blow in over 2 weeks of videos I've watched. Makoto's are afraid to charge in and let people get in her face. Makoto's are wasting her burst early and not using OD. Makoto's aren't using her new tools. Makoto's basic game has seemingly only improved. Now I may easily be wrong about something, or over/under analyzing, but I think there's some decent room for discussion and this board is getting dead so....

Discuss.

[Errol]

1. Cosmic Ray is a lot slower than a move like Hell's fang.

2. Cosmic Ray only has 3-4 active frames. You'll find yourself getting hit in the face much more than you would with something like tsubaki or ragna's rushes. Not the same tool. Not bad, though

3. I have yet to see what value lander blow truly adds to makoto's block strings over... Simply resetting after lunatic upper with a 2a. the charge length between the frame trap version and the plus on block version is so different people ought to be able to see the difference. In other words, it is approximately the same as frame trapping with mars chopper.

4. star gazer is very far from safe on block. You never get an easy block-string reset after either mars or after gazer.

If Goro doesn't do something there's probably a reason for it... but Makoto is nonetheless not too bad in this version.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Errol

[Errol]

bit more.

1. You can see lander blow. You can't see that there was no follow up to lunatic upper in time to mash out. You can SEE lander blow, and call out a reset if you want to here. if they go for lander 2, it'll frame trap. But you can also be Dp'd.

2. Theory, but Lander 2 and Lander 3's startup are so far apart that I think you can OS-mash out of it. with the right timing of mash, you would block lander 2 and mash out of lander 3. with 19 frame startup and 27 frame startup I don't really think this is theory. If people decide to REACT to lander blow by mashing 2a, they will most likely react too slowly to be frame trapped but fast enough to mash out of lander 3.

3. and again, if they want to dp you out of lander blow, there's nothing you can do to stop it if they do it on reaction. You can't dp a lunatic upper reset on reaction, you're stuck with guessing.

Really don't see this tool as being of hardly any use at all.

additionally, the combos you get out of lvl 2 lander have proven to be really lackluster. 80 P1 is a bitch.

On the other hand, lunatic upper has gotten really tight, and has damn good proration. You can arbitrarily delay it, and you can frame trap with it off of probably anything other than 2a now.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Errol

[Moy_X7]

Can other characters still low profile under her DP?

[Errol]

yep no change.

[Moy_X7]

Yay

[Yazumatto]

君の手は離さない

What does that say? It's Goro's new gamer tag so I'm curious.

[samthegreat]

won't let go of your hand. Well technically it's "your hand won't let go"...

[Yazumatto]

Lol Japan.

[Yazumatto]

I swear, every time Matsu appears in one of these top 30 videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Tg6-0_6X4

...his dan freefalls. As of today, he's at 14th dan when he was at 17th dan earlier today. He either had an off day or he was more reckless than usual. Still, Matsu pls. #Biblethump.

I can't help but feel he's going to drop her anyday now. A lot of people tend to change mains around this time. Then again, he takes his lumps pretty well and I'm more pessimistic than the average guy.

...anyway, does anyone have Matsu's twitter?

[Yazumatto]

Goro has hit 18th dan. I repeat, he got off his ass and hit 18th dan:

http://sp.bbcp.ac/ranking_view.php?mode=exe&type=psr_rank&couse=&charactor=mk&pref=0

inb4noonecaresexceptme

inb4helosesitimmediately

inb4igetinfractedfortripleposting

[Wild Candy]

Great for Goro! It's time people know Makoto is a dire threat in the right hands!