[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Teutonicknight]

I will still play her as well, it's not like I'm going to tourneys, but holy crap, they are removing the fun from her. I'd take the nerfs if they didn't directly affect how she plays, that crap hurts. I could only imagine what would happen if they did this for this long with another character; there'd be an outrage.

[Arc Raizen]

At this point, I'm getting ready to write to anyone I can at Arc System Works and try to get at least an answer to "why did she get the changes you gave her,"  "do you not think she is already too weak without these changes," and "what do you think she has that no one does?" Do they not see everybody disappointed and angry with the changes she has been getting the past few iterations? Do they not see the professional players literally dropping her because they cannot possibly win while playing her?

 

Lets go over where she stands right now:

• Less average damage than other rushdown characters
• Meh oki
• Very weak neutral game
• Extremely unsafe moves and blockstrings (at least she got a move safe on block to reset pressure, right.........)
• The worst DP in the game
• And average Overdrive
• Possibly worst fatals of the entire cast (2C has an 90 P1 and is extremely difficult to land, especially compared to Noel's 4D which has the same P1 and combo time but is made to fish out counters. All her drive fatals are either 80 P1 with normal combo time or 90 P1 with short combo time except for Comet Cannon which is just unrealistic to ever hit once in 100 games.)

Like sharpshooter188 said, she doesn't seem to have a place in the cast. Anyone playing her is doing it because they like her as a character or because they like a challenge, not because her playstyle offers something over the other characters. As far as I can tell, the only thing she still has going for her is corner carry, but that hardly matters if your oki is only ok if you get them into the corner and if you don't you're right back to neutral which is the toughest thing for her.

[MarkusArx]

Honestly,

- 5B went back to -1 and became jump cancelable on block again.

- Lander Blow had either A; better LV3 startup or B; LV2 was only -1

- Cosmic Ray had + frames on blocked LV3

- Combo Rate went to 75-80%

 

If any of the above would happen, then we'd probably have a lot better rushdown character on our hands here. But apparently buffs that'd make sense don't go on Makoto I guess, ever since she was out of control in CS2. 6B ground bounce is honestly a retarded change, and giving j.B a gatling into j.D is dumb because you can literally make it happen by using your jump cancel anyway.

 

She is supposed to be a rushdown character with a sort of bad mixup and Meh oki but be rewarded with above average damage or great corner carry when you do get that hit in. It's like the opposite with Order Sol, where he was originally designed to be a different character, but when ArcSys saw how people were playing him, they made changes to make him like that.

 

Hilariously, the only character that was actually needing adjusting this version was Kokonoe and POSSIBLY Hazama only because of j.C loop being ridiculously easy to start on quite a few starters. Everything else honestly looked fine for this iteration so far, but apparently ArcSys thought everyone needed balancing.

 

I guess for this version, I may finally learn Litchi or play Jin again.

[Teutonicknight]

I don't like the "recycle" style changes she's getting. She's mainly losing important tools, then getting them back, but usually at the cost of another major tool, with a few negligible things thrown in to make it look like they artificially did something with her. At this point, I kind of want her removed from the game just to avoid anymore torment.

 

...it sucks that we're letting this go on for so long, but there's honestly nothing better to note about these changes.

[Ragnarok_F4]

I insist she's still the same pre-patch. She got one little nerf (j5D) and one little buff (6B). Even the j5B re-launches are still in there even though it was considered a nerf too. The damage output is almost the same. And her gameplay stays the same.

[Teutonicknight]

I just don't see how she's the same; the nerf to j.B and buff to 6B isn't equivalent, it's still out of our favor. Yet the other characters who were considered bad got some hefty upgrades as needed. What exactly did Makoto do to deserve this that isn't unlike the other previous OP chars had?

 

...I'll have to embrace it either way. I'm going to pick up this game eventually, especially when the price drops. ＿|￣|○

I just hope Makoto is fun. 

[Arc Raizen]

Teutonicknight is right. j.B sounds like a neutral change, but reports are that even with the gatling to j.D it will not work late in combos. When does Makoto use j.B > j.D? Late in combos. So, we have to re-work all combos to compensate, losing damage across the board.

6B "buff" is a quality of life change that was never necessary or wanted. It slightly helps to mitigate the j.B nerf becacuse it is now used in combos, but it still comes out overall negative.

There's also the nerf to OD Particle Flare minimum damage, which is a straight up nerf to OD combos, as well as the backdash nerf.

 

On another note, I was testing some things with her Fatals a little while ago. CH 2C is straight up WORSE in the corner than CH 5B. You can get more damage off of CH 5B than from CH 2C because both allow you do the the EXACT same combo, but 5B has better P1. I cannot break 4k damage off of any drive fatal without meter. Lightning Arrow only comboable in the corner, but gets some corner carry midscreen. Cosmic Ray fatal only comboable in the corner. Shooting Star has 80 P1  that kills all damage although it has potential to combo midscreen. Drive normal fatals aren't better. 

[Ragnarok_F4]

But there are already new routes for that I think (few pages back). The thing is that those new routes doesn't have an ender for oki, so now is a trade between damage and oki (cause her damage went up a bit with the new routes). I agree that she deserved buffes a bit as the rest of the low tier chars (not as much as bullet or izayoi though), but overall she didn't get that worse overall. Now that the game is more balanced, tier lists are less significant (I suppose).

[Arc Raizen]

I thought the damage went down even with the new routes? I'll go back and try to find the what you're talking about, but I dont think I missed anything in this topic.

[Teutonicknight]

 

Now that the game is more balanced, tier lists are less significant (I suppose).

 

Not when you're in a tier of your own.

[Dark Ranger88]

snip

That's so wrong. We should be doing so much more damage considering we have meh neutral, mixup and defense. Drives and 2C should at least have 95 to 100 P1 because you have get read pretty hard to be hit by one of those. Also, having at least 1 L starter would be nice...

 

Does anyone even have an L starter?

[WolfCrimson]

Ragna's 22C is the only L starter in the game.

[Teutonicknight]

That's so wrong. We should be doing so much more damage considering we have meh neutral, mixup and defense.?

I know that's right. I wish more players would see this instead of assuming Makoto is okay and actually report in some of this data to Arc.

But it seems they balance her based on the performance of freakishly good players like someone said about Goro; they want her nerfed until she's unplayable even to him.

 

Anyone ever feel like this is what's happening?

[Ragnarok_F4]

Not when you're in a tier of your own.

 

But she didn't go down, she has almost the same advantages and flaws. We could say that the rest of the low tiers went up, she stayed there because she didn't change. the high tiers went down, so eveyone is closer. My perception in 1.1 is: fighting high tiers will be easier since they have less tools, options and some damage nerf. Fighting low tiers will be harder becuase of the buffs but since they are still kinda low that shouldn't be to much of a problem (they are not high tier, at much they will be mid-tier). That is, of course, with obvious exceptions like Azrael.

 

My point is, she could stay in a tier of her own, but since the game is more balanced, matchups will be more bearable. If you consider her unviable in 1.1, then she is unviable in 1.0.

[Teutonicknight]

I guess I understand that... But they still gave nerfs to an already bad character, but characters who were just as bad got huge improvements. Makoto being well-rounded didn't need as many buffs for sure, but she sure didn't need more nerfs, that's my point.

[OmnixTSC]

It's kinda like Arc Sys wants to see how players adapt to go-to Makoto routes changing a bit. Is there secretly something there? Sure doesn't seem like it at this point, but I'll still sub her regardless.

 

I don't want Makoto to get worse, but I sure don't want her to get a lot better (like S tier status better). I kinda enjoy knowing I won/lost entirely b/c of a screw-up on my part (which is generally the case with Makoto).

 

That's so wrong. We should be doing so much more damage considering we have meh neutral, mixup and defense.

 

I never liked this approach. This is what made Liz silly in P4A. She had an okay neutral game, an extremely meh mixup game but a decent oki game, and poor defensive options. The differences from her to Makoto is that she could literally kill you in 2-3 hits regardless of starter if she had the resources and that Makoto can actually play footsies and not get mauled for whiffing a button. Liz had this absurd damage, but still bottom'd out the tier list at the end of the day.

 

Giving a character damage does a lot for you when said character has trouble landing a solid hit or keeping the opponent locked down to begin with. Doing that basically tells everyone that Arc Sys hates the character even more than you thought, as now you have damage that you'll basically never see unless your opponent feels sorry for you or has a brain fart

[Teutonicknight]

It's kinda like Arc Sys wants to see how players adapt to go-to Makoto routes changing a bit. Is there secretly something there? Sure doesn't seem like it at this point, but I'll still sub her regardless.

 

I don't want Makoto to get worse, but I sure don't want her to get a lot better (like S tier status better). I kinda enjoy knowing I won/lost entirely b/c of a screw-up on my part (which is generally the case with Makoto).

That's actually right. Makoto's a tricky character to actually buff. One wrong buff, and she'd wind up broken again, or overly reliant one one fool-proof strategy like in CS2. But she doesn't need nerfs either; they just need to fix up a few of her existing moves slightly without going overboard, and she'd be considerably better. And do the small things like a hitbos tweak for CU and do... something with 3C, and she'd be totally perfect.

 

Although, if we could get Makoto back in CS1 form with a damage nerf and a few move fixes, I'd settle for it, that would be the shits, hehe. :D

[OmnixTSC]

That's actually right. Makoto's a tricky character to actually buff. One wrong buff, and she'd wind up broken again, or overly reliant one one fool-proof strategy like in CS2. But she doesn't need nerfs either; they just need to fix up a few of her existing moves slightly without going overboard, and she'd be considerably better. And do the small things like a hitbos tweak for CU and do... something with 3C, and she'd be totally perfect.

 

Although, if we could get Makoto back in CS1 form with a damage nerf and a few move fixes, I'd settle for it, that would be the shits, hehe. :D

 

My first thought was for them to buff Mak's frame traps...then I immediately saw the issue with that. Maybe buffing asteroid vision could help? Giving her more access to and improving her existing mixups without fundamentally making her stronger? Maybe she just needs more options to throw the opponent off :x

[mAc Chaos]

What if they made her like CS1 (tons of hitstun and blockstun on her moves, seriously blocking her moves felt like taking a punch from Mike Tyson) but low damage?

Then she'd be more like CS2 Hakumen.

[Arc Raizen]

I don't think she needs anything more than some tweaks to things that just don't make sense or sound stupidly unfair since few/no other characters have these or similar issues:

• Bad combo time and P1 combination on all fatals
• Low-ish combo rating (Mu is similar in having many single, hard hitting attacks, but her combo rating is 80 while Makoto's is 70)
• DP whiffs over low-profile targets
• Lander Blow level 1 (no charge) is slower than Lander Blow level 2
• Parry only followed up with Rapid or OD (I would love to see level 2 be comboable but with really low proration)
• 6B not forcing crouch
• BnB combos not working or are more difficult on random characters (214A~D and 5CC failing on sliding Jin/Valk, 6C>214A~C>236D whiffing often on much of the cast)
• 6A doesn't launch on counter (this could help so much for something so little, especially since some of the cast can get launch without counter hit)
• Bring j.B hitstun back, slight nerf to CH j.B hitstun is alright and fair
• Star Gazer (low) almost 3 times as unsafe as Mars Chopper (high) and Mars Chopper cannot be followed up except on counter hit (seriously, just allowing 5A/2A to work wouldn't hurt, she already has way too many instances of moves only working for combos on counter)

That's what I have for now, but even a small subset of these changes could easily help bring her out of bottom tier without changing her gameplay or completely breaking her like they did with CS2, and I cannot understand why they don't see these small tweaks being feasible, or if they even realize she's as bad as she is.

[Dark Ranger88]

I'm still mad that they took away 5B jump cancel while significantly increasing barrier pushback. Our only JCable normal has puny range and whiffs after everything if the opponent is holding barrier. Plus 5B > JC > Stuff made it much easier to get into some good mixups.

 

And we can't really use Asteroid Vision as a pseudo jump cancel because you just fly over the opponent and whiff...

[Angry Guy of DE]

Well as a whole most characters lost 5B jump cancel on block, but the barrier pushback hurt her pressure.

What she could use is an increase to 6A range and allow gatling to 2B.  Right now it can only gatling to 6B which is predictable and gets DP'd on reaction. 

I might also be the only one but I really wish her parry was more reliable.  Even with knowing what strings can be IB'd and parried the range on the catch will not reach the opponent while they are doing strings and you get punished for using it. 

I just wish the parry could catch > guard break animation > asteroid vision instead of a weak 1,200 ~1,500 Drive punish.

 

[D.R.F.]

I just don't understand why her parry isnt a PARRY, but I guess I'm late to the party on that

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[Teutonicknight]

I just don't understand why her parry isnt a PARRY, but I guess I'm late to the party on that

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You mean the fact that it's mainly a free counterhit for the opponent, and has only a 30% chance of actually working and hard as hell to follow up, even with resources? It's more like a really ghetto reversal. An actual parry would be far more useful.

[D.R.F.]

Holy crap. Jam parry comes to mind for an actual good parry, arcsys please

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