[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Errol]

Like I said, antiairs have weaknesses. Valk j.C manages to blow up A LOT of antiairs, Not just yours.

 

Of the characters I've played, tsubaki has the weakest anti-air. Makoto's is probably the best, and Rachel's is really good too. But Rachel's antiair has some very big weaknesses of its own. it loses to things that tsubaki can handle with hers no problem. Unless you play koko, you're not going to have some antiair that is impervious to everything anyone might do in the air.

 

 

Mu's 2c goes active slower, invuln MUCH slower, has less active frames, and recovers slower. it complements well with her other defenses, 6a, dp.

 

I don't think there is any other 2c anti air that goes invuln as fast as Relius' anymore.

[NecroTheReaper]

Maybe that's what my issue is is that all his defensive options get beat by the same stuff. RYO acknowledged that our reversal is crap and I don't think Ive ever seen him use it on defense. To be fair though, he use to be 18th dan, now since the patch, he's been at 16 for forever, amd I can only think of the backdash nerf as to why this had happened.

[Errol]

he stopped dodging.

[Myoro]

Like I said, antiairs have weaknesses. Valk j.C manages to blow up A LOT of antiairs, Not just yours.

 

Of the characters I've played, tsubaki has the weakest anti-air. Makoto's is probably the best, and Rachel's is really good too. But Rachel's antiair has some very big weaknesses of its own. it loses to things that tsubaki can handle with hers no problem. Unless you play koko, you're not going to have some antiair that is impervious to everything anyone might do in the air.

 

 

Mu's 2c goes active slower, invuln MUCH slower, has less active frames, and recovers slower. it complements well with her other defenses, 6a, dp.

 

I don't think there is any other 2c anti air that goes invuln as fast as Relius' anymore.

 

Relius doesn't have a DP worth a dang for air approaches, and the only other anti airs he has are 6B (no invuln poor start-up, poor range low damage confirms outside of CH), 5A (okayish start up, whiffs on some crouching hitboxes, low priority, small range low damage confirms), 4D (Requires Ignis out, requires 1000 IG, No head invuln for Ignis meaning she sometimes gets beaten or traded, great range, but okayish start-up.)

 

Really 2C is the best option of all of these, but that makes it the biggest obstacle to overcome in getting through Relius' defenses. With glaring weaknesses like small vertical range and poor recovery it might be good, but it's certainly not good enough to act as a standalone anti-air. I think when Necro and other Relius players say 2C isn't good it belies what they really mean which is that it isn't good enough to make his anti-air game passable by itself.

 

In my own opinion, so take this with a grain of salt, mastery of instant blocking and summoning and using Ignis during defense might be the only thing that might elevate Relius' defensive game to anything resembling a threat considering the hand he's dealt.

[Errol]

the only character even close to having a standalone antiair is koko.

[Myoro]

Yeah, but whatever kind of quality anti-air 2C is, Relius' anti-air game is still a mess, and I refuse to leave it at that.

 

Right now I'm working to counter cross-ups with j.A and j.B+C, I think a more intimate knowledge of IB-ing will boost the effectiveness of 2C and 5A, and I think I can counter bait foes expecting 2C with 2D and enable 4D during defensive play. All of this will require some expert guitar hero level blocking...

[NecroTheReaper]

My issue with 2C is that it loses to stuff that I havnt seen any anti-air lose to in this game. I actually tested this, and almost every character is capable of doing the dumbest pressure reset of IAD j.A mash or a character specific move. Say you use a CA on jin while in the corner, but it didnt CH so he air teched and IAD forward j.2C, so noticing his air tech IAD, you do 2C. 2C loses to this cleanly. The entire thing wiffs on Jin entirely, and he gets a CH j.2C off it. If it was just not being able to beat certain moves, yeah, ok, it.doesnt work. But it behaves this way for more than half the cast. I don't think most people have to deal with their cornered anti-air attempt wiffing on an IAD. This has gotten me killed so many times cuz of what should be the easiest AA call-out for nearly the whole cast, not working.

[WakeUpDP]

Now this was quite a series of posts.

 

And Ranks have to be taken with consideration Necro, RYO wasn't 18th dan all the time 1.0 + he didnt have a ps3 back in 1.0 so he had new characters to deal with.

 

This is more using the right tool in the scenario it was made for which is not that easy which 2C has its set of ups and down.

Myoro has the right way of thinking about finding a way to make up for it/complementing it.

[Myoro]

In situations like that I think a superjump j.[A] would be better. We could probably do something like microdash>2D>4D if we knew that exact thing was about to happen.

[WakeUpDP]

There are basic things too like barrier/instant barrier to push the enemy away giving more time to act on it.

 

Also looking at the combo thread (sorry for the lateness). I took some time to look into some of them, expect updates here and there.

 

Did not mention this in the last post but Necro that comment about Errol posting in this thread was not called for, and against what this thread is trying to accomplish.

[NecroTheReaper]

I don't think so, considering his reason for posting was he's tired of people talking about it. Anyway, I'll just keep my own thoughts about Relius' 2C shut out from this gameplay discussion forum from now on since it brings in way too much drama.

[Errol]

Your posts show up on the sidebar. and it's not relius forums, it's all over, pet peeves, netplay, etc. I have trouble just leaving some of these stuff. Like when kokonoe players were like omg B TIER!!! I called them on it.

[NecroTheReaper]

My original post about 2C was its pointless to use on Valk wolf pressure over 5A since it doesnt FC or get an air hit while 5A gets an air CH for full combo, then we were comparing Izayoi and relius AAs. I may have said I think its crap, but given the situation, it made sense. And I know you know when I post, but you did say you said it cuz it annoyed you. Peeves yeah, I say it, but I also say a lot of crap about netplay, like CAs, or lag, or mis-inputs, things people typically have no place complaining about but its ok there. This is Relius discussion though, and I was talking about a situation and comparing frame data and hitboxes. But anyway, if it bothers you so much Errol I'll stop.

Edit: on to more important, non AA things, anyone have a list of characters that the j.B>dj.C fuzzy works reliably on? Watching how easy it is to punish for characters if you don't establish if it works before hand could lose rounds and I'm in a hotel with only my vita, so I cant test Koko and Terumi.

[Errol]

There was a hell of a lot of whining about antiairs in there. I don't want you to stop, I want you to realize you have a pretty decent anti-air (the best Relius in NA called it godlike).  Once you get there, the rest will resolve itself.

[DJ_Blactricity]

2Cing it is pointless and risky, cuz even if you IB it, you don't get a CH or an air hit. Man I wish our AA wasn't crap. I mean, usually a character is equipped with 2 AAs that work in different places or 1 good AA. We get 1 bad AA. Aaaaanyway, while watching a videos, seems a lot of high end players have the same problem matchups that I do, so I guess those are just disadvantaged matchups.

You shouldn't not use an option just because it's risky especially when considering IB 5A/2C both lose to w.5C>3D>4C , and IB 2C beats w.5C>4/7D>j.A while IB 5A whiffs and wj.A catches the recovery. Knowing you can 2C is worth it since you could do 2C>3C>236C RC etc. and possibly end a round.

[NecroTheReaper]

Ok ok, but can you stop pickin on me all the damn time? Its really discouraging, specially when we play a loooooot of rounds ._.

Anyway, putting aside my unrequited no-homo love for Errol, I answered some of my own questions about the j.B>dj.C fuzzy, cant get it to work on pretty much obvious ones (dunno bout Terumi and Koko)

Makoto, Izayoi, Carl, Rachel, Bang, Bullet, Platinum, Noel, Arakune

I'm gonna assume it doesnt work on Koko, but anyway, is it -possible- but not really applicable for these, or does it just not work.

Edit: during valk's offense, if you do OS his 6/4D>wj.A with IB 2C, chances are you won't always have 50 meter. Also, cofirming that it was a ground hit is also very difficult, but if you do have the meter, Valk is susceptible to the 22C>2D combo path which leads to fairly good damage, but will push him away from the corner if you were in the corner. And w.5C>2D>w.5C isn't punishable for ys even on IB so its more of something you're forced to reactto unless you barrier him too far away. I'm great at knowing things, but applying them is completely different

[DJ_Blactricity]

Have you actually tried practicing the confirm? I don't even play relius, and it's simple. You've already committed to 2C so just look and see if valk did 6/4D. You could also autopilot 2C>3C since you can do 2C FC>3C whiff > dash 5B. Doing IB 2C/5A to punish 6D>j.A after w.5C is a read. Your not going to be reacting to w.5C>3D>4C which punishes you for making the wrong read. w.5C>2D>5C is mashable and loses to IB 2C. Of course you won't always have meter. Even without meter you still get a knockdown.

[NecroTheReaper]

I guess its cuz if you do that its pure auto-pilot into 3C and I always tend to auto-pilot into 6C in case it wasnt an air FC. There's always the chance that their own mistakes (or intentions?) Come into play and their w.jA doesn't come out. Just saying a lot of things can factor in since all the ways 2C can be hit confirmed are different. Can't imagine it happen in an offline environment, but online is where all the weird stufd happens anyway... aaaand SONOFABITCH WERE TALKIN ABOUT 2C AGAIN.

[Dusty]

Fuzzy doesn't work on koko. Terumi you have the green light.

Also, fuck wolfnigga and I wish 2C was better. There's defiantly some dead zones where you cant AA people with 2C or 4D because of how small the vertical hitbox of 2C is and the angle of 4D. But that's where you have to recognize you can 236A>6D and they'll fall in to the 6D and you get to start pressure and if they double jump you just recover and 2C them. Of course 6B having head invul would fix this problem(fingers crossed next game). Also I wouldn't try to 2C Wolfnigga unless you have a hard read. 5A>6B confirm is your friend in this match up.

[NecroTheReaper]

I try to do 236AD, but a lot of the time, they're too close and 6D ends up wiffing. There some sort of remedy to this?

[Myoro]

If they're airborne or tall and not ducking 4D'll get em no matter how close. We could do as Carls do and cover our horrible backdash with 6D if you need spacing.

[NecroTheReaper]

With the way autoguard works, I doubt itd work out as well as it does for Carl. Ignis is forced to ride right on Relius, she'd absorb the attack, get hit out, and the actives would still come though and hit us(even if the actives of the move normally wouldn't). Carl gets away with it cuz he can control Nirvana during wakeup animations, so he gets like 20+ frames of invul.

Edit: my grammar makes me cry

[Myoro]

I was thinking backdash through actives>6D their Recovery while we recover from backdash>665B for combo or pressure.

 

This would of course only work on moves with 7 or fewer actives (If our invuln really hasn't improved at all since 1.0) and they'd have to have at least 9ish recovery frames for 6D to be safe.

 

This wouldn't do much for air approaches, but then I don't see why 236D + 4D wouldn't stop those. This solution would work more for stuff like Ragna's 214A which would leave him to close. (You'd also be free to block ID and far enough not to get grabbed after)

[NecroTheReaper]

Yeah, that could work. I always have a bad babit of making ignis attack as soon as I do ley. Like I said before though, is there an attack ignis can do if they're like right on you? She tends to wiff this close.

[Myoro]

Not one during ley, but 214A and 214C can catch things like Izayoi's 214D koko's 22C and bangs 236236D with ease even though it puts Ignis right on top of them. During ley 6D 2D and 4D are the only usable moves and  6D and 2D have the same point blank problem, and 4D whiffs on standing shorties and crouchers.