[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Shockna]

And the worst possible input for a reversal is Carl or Hazama's astral. Let's count ourselves lucky.

 

Ok, that's fair. I've never played a character in a fighter with a pretzel motion (or the awful input for Carl's astral), so I often forget they exist. I'm a bit annoyed with vinum at the moment since the only two Relius challenges I haven't finished both involve 3C>Vinum (which comes out as Tus half the time ⌐_⌐).

 

Is it useful as a wake up DP generally, or just against a few characters like Hakumen?

[NecroTheReaper]

Its a crappy reversal period. Its in our favor on trade, but the nature of dp's follows this rule most of the time. Bad range, terrible on block, OS'd by so.many things because its projectile property, bad damage, short starter... need I go on? It serves its use as Relius' only real reversal though, even if its bad.

[Myoro]

Well on wake-up if you load 2363214 then press C if you see something Vinum will counter you can cover your bases. if you don't see anything you'll still be holding 4 (or will be able to press 1 on short notice) and you can block anything vinum wouldn't get.

 

Since vinum doesn't work on Haku's 6B I used it as an example.

 

As a reversal I think it works well on Valkenhayn's wolf form, and no one else. It still has uses though.

[NecroTheReaper]

I can understand valk's wolf mode, but a lot of people can dp during it. Its the fact he can easily use his 4/7D wolf dash to bait, but yeah, I can see.it working more often there.

A bigger issue I have with vinum is if I wanna do tus midscreen, if its against a high mobility character and they crossup, I can randomly get vinum to come out in neutral. This is death.

[NecroTheReaper]

Id lauger. New follow-up. Discuss. NOW.

What else could they follow up lauger with? I'm kinda hoping something that can be used midscreen, but I feel that would really ramp up our damage. 3.9k from lauger RC combos is pretty good as is. Or it could be something else entirely and might turn lauger into a pseudo-rekka with somethin like 236C>214A>xx. Anyway, made me pretty excited even if it wasnt necessarily what we wanted.

[Myoro]

Wait WHAT? sauce please! (source please)

 

MAXIMUM EXCITEMENT ACHIEVED!

 

EDIT: NVM found it.

 

Sure enough ~214C is right under ~214B

 

It says イド　ザイン　Which I believes translates to Ido Zain or something similar. (I think that's what it says, though in Japanese Id Naiads is spelled Ido Naia)

 

Someone run that through the Engrish to English translator, then through the English to Latin translator.

 

I see it as a possible corner damage adage or some new-fangled way to get Oki. I can see them letting us get ez midscreen damage without Ignis present, so I'm hard pressed to imagine much else. My big problem is now we have more follow-ups than Id Laugers... (well If you counted 5B/3C link then we always did...)

[Tokkan]

It may be called "Id Zein", just FYI.

[Djqubil]

Adding Val Tus as a follow up attack to Id Zein...

I think I have tears in my eye. So beautiful. ;_;

[LaziestNameEver]

Adding Val Tus as a follow up attack to Id Zein...

I think I have tears in my eye. So beautiful. ;_;

No way that's going to be a thing.

[NecroTheReaper]

One thing I could think of is that it could be his OD followup attack to lyra where she uses Nose's animation to bring them back toward you. Maybe an easier corner swap with more damage and better oki? Wish we could get an announcement video for all the new moves

[Shockna]

No way that's going to be a thing.

As awesome as it would be on the ground, yeah. I don't see any way that they could make that connect in the air without a floating Tus. Using Nose's animation makes a lot more sense. Only two more days until we find out.

[Myoro]

Well assuming they don't change anything about Relius' other moves (which in all likeliness will be a false assumption, but bear with me,) we have the following to consider.

 

What does Id Haas and Id Naiads not do that a third follow-up could?

 

Id Haas does the following:

-Corner carry

-Corner combos (and Mid to corner combos)

-Air confirms at corner

-Can link into CT and 41236B, our two slowest combo tools

 

Id Naiads does the following:

-Gets knockdown

-Gets Oki

-Gets damage

-Corner combo tool

 

Now what could we want out of a follow-up that these two do not offer?

 

What could Id Zain/Id Zein do? Here are my ideas for only if it costs as much as the other two follow-ups:

-Blast the opponent behind you for combos if your back is to the wall.

-Pressure the opponent on their wake-up at no additional cost. (And potentially combo if the opponent was hit by the tip of 236C)

-Reset the opponent somehow

-Auto de-summon Ignis after

-Additional damage/No Oki

-Gives a distortion oppertunity

- Pressures the opponent after they tech from 236C (Potentially if done late.)

-More corner damage

 

If it costs more its utility could be higher...

[NecroTheReaper]

You brought up pressure things after a 236C and that made me wonder if it might be a high/low hitting move that you can use on 236C oki. Guess we'll only know if they showcase it in the vidya.

[LaziestNameEver]

So, word around town is every DD is gonna get a OD form.

 

Best case scenario: 2363214C loses all of its properties in OD, gains a hit-box, gets better P1/P2, and becomes a real man's DP.

 Guard cancel OD makes this scenario 100x more attractive. Assuming it happens. Which it may not. :/

[NecroTheReaper]

So. 3C not jump cancellable this build.

...

...

FUCK THAT.

Ok, now for non dramatics. Why remove the basis of his combos, pressure, and mixup? 3C is the obly move to keep people from just mashing AA during any mixup attempt. Just a loke build, but really hope this goes instantly. No lauger followup is worth losing our pressure cornerstone.

[Myoro]

 

Relius

- 3C no longer jump cancelable

 

I know, I know, it's loketest info. But is is too early to cry?

[WakeUpDP]

I know, I know, it's loketest info. But is is too early to cry?

 

Yes, and on that subject I made a new "discussion/gather changes" thread so we can put info there instead of the gameplay thread.

[Myoro]

Yes, and on that subject made a new discussion/gather changes thread so we can put info there instead of the gameplay thread.

 

Great thinkin' Wakky! I need somewhere to vent my anxiety about this, as well as list the repercussions and make damage control pressure Oki and combo Ideas that may work in 3C>jump's absence.

[Myoro]

So while the CP2 fiasco was afoot I briefly forgot I am a scientist.

 

So now let's develop some tech eh?

 

So I was fighting this Haku and I did a weird thing. on 3C oki I used 214B and used a grab that I knew wouldn't hit his standing hitbox. Oddly enough he 6D'd into the grab and it got him. This got me thinking, "Do all of Haku's shields extend his hurtbox?"

 

If so this may work for certain pressure from 3C in a sort of "grabbed if you sheild, hit by 214B if you don't block, pressured if you do, kinda way.

[NecroTheReaper]

An addition to some.of your old tech, 6B>5C(1)>2C connects on both Carl and Amane if you delay the 5C, so now there's no real character specifics.

[Myoro]

Wait, what? Oh snap oh snap oh snap! Solo combos still exist! Necro I could hug you right now!

 

Know what else is awesome? j.C>665B>6B>5C>2C>3C is a legit and safe blockstring! We can take this to market!

 

 

...say Necro been testing our new 2C jump cancel using rapids. It can go into j.C/j.236C pretty flawlessly provided the frame data doesn't change. If (2C>jump cancel>cancel jump start-up into OD) works anything like (2C>rapid>OD) and I think it does based on testing 5C>jcodc vs 5C>rapid>OD, then things like 2C>jcodc>2C and 2C>jcodc>5B will work and give us full OD off any 2C.

 

I found out we could actually use jcodc on our 3C midscreen with a little execution and our lovely assistant Ignis.

 

What you have to do is 5B>3C>6D>jcodc>6D hits>2C>214A>stuff

 

This gives you full OD for the combo and can be done anywhere.

[NecroTheReaper]

Indeed. I worked with some of the jcOD a while back ago, the sad thing is you get less damage than you would for a normal cOD Dx. So, it dependa on your needs I guess. If you want unburstable damage, jcOD is best, if you want raw damage, cOD is best.

I'm tryin not to worry too much about the loke since it'll only ne a matter of time till a completely new build comes out slammin us with bad changes we didn't even know were bad. They seem to pride themselves on doing the most nonsensical methods of changinf characters. Next they might make 214x a type of stance move for all I know.

[Myoro]

Well the jcOD thing works from any distance 3C which is a plus and it'll allow for 214A>214B>214C at any health giving full screen carry into 3700+ damage and 3C oki or distortion which is cool.

 

...I really hope 2C jump cancels on block...

 

If it does it'll do wonders for our offense and defense come CP2.

[NecroTheReaper]

It is convenient, I'll give it that much. Also not too difficult to confirm, especially off a 6A. Sadly 6A forces you to use up a small bit of combo timer time anyway so its gotta get cut short. From midscreen, here's the damage numbers I got from 50% hp and metet midsceen. cOD gave 5.8k even without OD DD ender. jcOD hit 5.4k, also without OD DD ender at this level. So if you got the hp levels for it, you'd get 6k amd 5.6k respectively.

Honestly it would take forever for me to get use to j.c 2C. Its got a better hitbox, but its also got a slower startup and hits mid. Also its the same level as 3C. Now, it would be nice if they gave us the 2C jump cancel in addition to 3C, but rhen we would need to give up something. Maybe I'd be willing to make 5B... -gulp- 10f startup. MAYBE. But 5B is our other love. Either that, or put 2C in line with the other AAs as far as invul and actives go.

[Shockna]

Do you have the full notation for those combos? >_>

 

I'm not sure what would come after 214C in the OD combo for that damage (my guess is either CT>j.8Dx3>j.C?>Lauger>4D>Tedo/3C depending on meter or just j.C>Lauger>4D>Tedo/3C).