[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[NecroTheReaper]

Hmm... give us a 3D where she does Naidas stationary on the ground xD. That would be a very cool move for oki and defense actually. But ark doesn't listen to rhese forums

[Myoro]

Give Ignis a mini version of Carls old astral as 421D. Make it cost like 30~50 IG but make it usable only when Ignis is out. Make it have Ignis invuln, do a gorrilion damage, and have a ton of Ignis recovery but do real good combo damage, wallstick in the corner, and give a easy CH confirm midscreen on air or ground hit even midscreen.

 

Make it twice the size and speed in OD with half the recovery.

 

It'd prolly have SMP -_-"

[NecroTheReaper]

How bout if goin into OD made Relius take off his mask and he mind rapes the enemy for 13001 damage. xD but anyway, onto more realistic things. Honestly, even though air grab is our only air to air poke (level with the enemy) I wish they'd nerf the horizontal hitbox for all air throws and buff ground throws back to normal. Its so braindead to just throw out IAD grab and somehow grab someone 5 feet above you, I'd rather have more mindgames with ground throw range back.

[Myoro]

Fun fact, Like id Lauger, Gaera Lugia combos into 5B (and possibly 3C) if the last few actives and the top of its hit box are the things touched. Strict as heck but it's got fair damage and P2 so...

 

I've only got it to work in combos off of 4D and OD 214B/214C (OR air counter hit normal 214B and 214C) and it runs our combo timer so I don't know if it's too practical, but it is what it is.

[Myoro]

DOUBLE POST BUT WORTH IT.

 

I was fighting this Noel, She's down to like no health. I Duo Bios. She Airdashes over then aircombos me. I counterhit Burst her. The burst coblos into the last hit of Duo Bios. I land as she rockets back to me. I use 2C to clench the match.

 

Moral of story: Duo Bios>Burst>last hit of Duo Bios>2C [129DMG/-49HT/-1500IG]

[NecroTheReaper]

Another thing that gives you a great feeling is if you did a meterless OD combo and had 50 heat by the end still in OD. You use OD 236236D, people manage to jump over it and attempt to attack, just to get caught in the blade whirl portion's crossup hitbox and get themselves killed.

[Myoro]

I've done it. My greatest masterpiece.

 

(Duo Bios out) Burst>last hit of Duo Bios>3C>632146D  [1162DMG/-99HT/-2500IG/+100%salt if this takes the match]

 

To my knowledge it works anywhere so long as you're getting hit and Duo Bios is out. If the match is close and you can do this, then do it and be a legend.

[NecroTheReaper]

If you wanna really be impressive, stockpile 100 heat, keep OD available, and wait for a chance to punish with 236C for an 8k damage combo. People will be stupified and impressed that you broke 7k with Rel.

[Myoro]

I dunno, being able to land a 1000ish damage punish while you're being comboed sounds legitimately broken. It requires set-up and literally every resource available to Relius so it's sorta balanced (In that it'll probably be rare if not non existent in actual game-play.) But I feel like it's crazy that the option even exists.

 

See, I didn't know that burst combos could kill. If I had known how to do this there are matches that I actually could have won that I didn't. I've been in the situation before where I've had Duo Bios out, 50 more heat, a burst, enough health to take the first part of a combo, and an opponent left with less than 1162 health many times. I always thought it was like counter assaults where combos from them can't kill. So for me, the one Relius dumb enough to use Duo Bios in neutral at the close of a round, this is a big thing.

[NecroTheReaper]

I use it at neutral too, give people without the air mobility somethin to be scared of xD. I really need to use that fuzzy in my mixup more. WHY DOES EVERY PERSON I FIGHT USE A TINY CHARACTER.

And yeah, kill combo from burst = a very salty opponent xD kill combo from 3/4 hp = respect

[Myoro]

Honestly I get more milage outta j.C>6A than the fuzzy.

 

People instinctively bow down to Relius once he touches the ground. Once they figure that out I turn it into j.C>5B>6A and then j.C>5B>delay to make their muscles react to an imaginary 6A>3C.

 

Don't forget we can frametrap people in mix-up too. Not only can we use Ignis to do so, but we can use the often forgotten about gatlings Relius has. Sometimes I do 5B>a false "accidental" 2C>late gating into 3C for a frame trap>jump to combo or continue pressure. j.C>66B>delay 5C>3C works to a similar effect, though less effectively so (It at least catches jump outs and safely cancels into 3C.)

 

j.C>663C>jump over with dash momentum>j.2D/j.B follow up is also effective.

 

In the corner (Be it they or me) I sometimes use 5B>214B>forward jump if they're far, neutral if close>falling j.B cross-up. The beauty of it is that only with 214B's push does it become a cross-up,  so not only is it hard to react to, it requires the opponent to switch their blocking in 0.15~0.50 seconds which in itself is hard. 2D can be used to similar effect, but it costs more, you gotta have ignis out and in reality it's only slightly safer and way more predictable/reactable.

 

If I have the respect for them to wait for fuzzy timing, I'll instead do BS like 5B>5A+B, 5B>236D, or other zany things like it (CT and 236D work from any ground normal, so get creative here.)

[NecroTheReaper]

The reason why the fuzzy is so good though, is as Lich said in his guide, its Relius' only unreactable mixup option (unless you wanna do some 6A/41236B RC IAD shenanigans). Making people have to predict that you'll do that j.C which is (i think) gapless can instantly open people up who aren't already predicting instead of reacting to your mixup.

Not to say everything else does well on its own, but j.C>6A is easily mashable (8f). Going to frame traps though just brings up my wish of I wish he had meaningful CH/crouching confirms. If 6C>41236B worked regularly, itd be amazing for ignis regen. Make safer 6A>RC combos worth the safety instead of goin straight for 236C>RC.

[Myoro]

TBH 6A>6D is better than 6A>rapid.

 

Here's how I view Ignis pressure. Ignis=10,000IG storing bank. 6D costs 1,300IG. 10,000/1300=8 rounded up.

 

Basically if I summon Ignis and go straight into pressure only using 6D as an Ignis move, I have a total of 8 mini Relius blockstrings I can connect safely (+2 if I have 100 gauge for rapids.)

 

This is of course an unrealistic amount of connects for 4 reasons. 1 no one is going to use rapids to enhance Relius pressure, that would be redundant. 2: we have to account for IG used in prior combos, neutral, or Oki. 3: We have to factor in the fact that Ignis will decay during the Mini Relius blockstrings. 4: as amount of pressure resets via 6D go up, reward for breaking the opponent's guard goes down, the reward for breaking through someone's guard is negligible if you have less than 2300IG and no meter, and nearly non-existant if you have less than 1300 IG with no meter.

 

Realistically you have 4-5 pressure resets before you consider exiting pressure or 6-7 if you have meter to fall back on for a de-summon/solo combo.

 

So the way to beat the system is to con your way out of having to spend IG whenever you can. You can do this by making people believe you are going to make something safe when you aren't really. Because of my use of 5B>6D>665B I often get away with 5B>665B for no good reason other than people are afraid to move. The threat of Ignis is a great weapon too, but to use this weapon you must cement something vital in the opponent's mind: "BAD THINGS HAPPEN WHEN THEY MOVE." if they mash, make sure they get hit, if they DP make sure they get blocked or they whiff, if they try to jump out make sure they meet 6D>665B air unblockable into 3400 damage or 6D>66>j.B+C if they barrier.

 

(This isn't even limited to Ignis pressure really, the reason j.C>66A works is because j.C>665B/663C will be there for them if they dare get impatient and mash.)

 

Everyone has their threshold for how many times you can reset your pressure in an illegitimate fashion or do unsafe things during pressure before they get impatient, and when you know that threshold you can punish it as well by suddenly going legit and blowing up their impatient actions. If the person you're playing is the high-strung sort who looks for unsafe things to disrespect just remember you can straight up WHIFF moves and still punish with 6D for a full combo.

 

The total pressure resets you can have jumps to about an average of 10 (12 With 50% for de-summon/solo combo) if you keep it fresh.

 

In short, Relius way of getting through the opponent's guard is less a game of high vs low, left vs right, grab vs jab, than other's but more one of Respect vs Disrespect, Patience vs Impatience. If they disrespect you, punish them for it, if they respect you, make them wish they didn't. All the cards are in your hand, and you win so long as you make the right call. (of course High/low/left/right/jab/grab are part of our mix-up too, but as they're not AS effective as other character's they can be incorporated to distract the opponents from our darker schemes...)

[NecroTheReaper]

I mean 6A>RC>5C while ignis recharges though. Not many people expect 6A to be used solo, and if 6C>41236B combo'd, we could do solo combos that waste plenty of time.

Also, great way to make people impatient. 2C>6C>41236B. All day. People see this and they're like "I can mash out if I see it again", then you're like 6D. Then they try to IB 41236B to make it - on block. 6D. Then they IB DP... are you retarded? I can still just 6D for safety xD. They try to jump out? Air grab/4D. Backstep depends on character, but we do have plenty of toys to make people impatient. Males me wonder why people don't find Relius' playstyle as trollish as Hazama's.

[Myoro]

I'd try 6A>Rapid>66B>5C if I were you.

 

6A>RC>66B>j.B>j.C>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C>sj>j.B>j.C j.236C~j.214B should do nicely

 

If you mis-confirm into 6A>RC>66B>5C you can catch yourself by doing 6A>RC>66B>5C(1)>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C>sj>j.B>j.C j.236C~j.214B on anyone who isn't Amane or Carl.

 

on block 6A>RC>66B>5C>(3C>jump)/(2C>6C>41236B)/(whatever the hack you plan on doing off of blocked 5C) should work just fine.

 

I think people are more tolerant about Relius' trolling because he isn't as blatant about it. From an onlooker's perspective it looks like we're playing a really difficult timing based character with few-to-no tools without his doll that goes away whenever he's so much as sneezed on. They just don't really know how good we have it I think.

 

If you need to get the point across I suggest this blockstring. 3C oki>236236D>[Taunt]xN>66C>236236D>[Taunt]xN>OD>5B>214C>Taunt>5B>3C>[any real blockstring you feel like doing.]

[Dusty]

The fuzzy is relius' best mix up option. There's absolutely no reason to not spam it every chance you get. It's a gapless 50/50 and even if they guess correctly you get to keep going.

 

Alot of people complain about relius, but its mainly the japanese players, they consistently rank relius ATLEAST A tier since he's been introduced into BB. The only reason you don't hear people in america complain about relius is because the characters above him on the tier list are just more stupid/annoying to fight against.

[Myoro]

The fuzzy is relius' best mix up option. There's absolutely no reason to not spam it every chance you get. It's a gapless 50/50 and even if they guess correctly you get to keep going.

 

Alot of people complain about relius, but its mainly the japanese players, they consistently rank relius ATLEAST A tier since he's been introduced into BB. The only reason you don't hear people in america complain about relius is because the characters above him on the tier list are just more stupid/annoying to fight against.

 

It also looks to be the cheaper option Ignis cost wise, I'm just more worried about character specific-ness the nerf to air normal's P1 hurting its damage. Is Tager the only person the fuzzy wuzzy works on midscreen? Who doesn't it work on in the corner? What are the stats on this thing? What kinda combos does it lead into? What are gimmicks that can be done from it? What do we do when the fuzzy is blocked correctly?

 

There's a lot I wanna know before just chucking it into my gameplay, and I'm ether gonna find it out four days from now in the lab then in matches, or when some kind soul spells it out for me here.

 

EDIT: Happy 4th BTW! ^_^

[NecroTheReaper]

Makoto, Izayoi, Carl, Rachel, Bang, Bullet, Platinum, Noel, Arakune, Kokonoe are all the problem characters it doesnt work on. If tney block the fuzzy, a falling j.B is still yout main followup, but if there's a gap on IB I think it safejumps. You still get about 3.5k damage from a fuzzy

[Myoro]

Makoto, Izayoi, Carl, Rachel, Bang, Bullet, Platinum, Noel, Arakune, Kokonoe are all the problem characters it doesnt work on. If tney block the fuzzy, a falling j.B is still yout main followup, but if there's a gap on IB I think it safejumps. You still get about 3.5k damage from a fuzzy

 

So our best mix-up tool is useless against 9 cast members? that's over one 3rd of the cast! Thanks Obama...

 

But there's a bright silver lining, it works on Ragna, Jin, Hazumi, and Azrael, and that's a good 80% of who people play anyway!

 

But goddang it Rachel and Koko were the only two I really wanted to use it on. They've been instant overheading me for years and I want revenge! I think I'mma have to invent a mnemonic to remember all those characters I can or can't use it on.

 

Thanks for the info guys!

[NecroTheReaper]

But... but koko's only been out for like 10 months. Also, I look at it as it works on almost all of the high tier characters. I mean, it works on more people than 22CD combo works on, that's gotta mean something xD

[Myoro]

But... but koko's only been out for like 10 months. Also, I look at it as it works on almost all of the high tier characters. I mean, it works on more people than 22CD combo works on, that's gotta mean something xD

 

I have a flair for the dramatic Necro, you know this. But in any case we should devote a page, topic, or something somewhere to hyper-useful things that are character specific. We could write explanations and who it does and does not work on.

 

So far we have:

 

The 22CD combo

 

The sure to be chara specific 41236B>4D desummoning trick

 

The Fuzzy

[NecroTheReaper]

I cant think of many character specifics at the moment Dx.

Anyway, what's the cause of somehow crossing up the opponent after a j.214B>IAD ender? Because I like mixup options that beat wake up options, I try and do Lich's 66>j.2D to kill back rolls and some dp's, but some times I end up putting myself in the corner. Also, how tight is j.2D in this setup?

[Myoro]

I cant think of many character specifics at the moment Dx.

Anyway, what's the cause of somehow crossing up the opponent after a j.214B>IAD ender? Because I like mixup options that beat wake up options, I try and do Lich's 66>j.2D to kill back rolls and some dp's, but some times I end up putting myself in the corner. Also, how tight is j.2D in this setup?

 

I think it must have to do with all actions past 41236B.

 

If you microdash before 5B>5C superjump that will obviously place you closer for a dashover.

 

If you Cancel j.236C into j.214B ASAP then the opponent will be placed very close

 

and if you airdash ASAP then you should get a broader arc landing you further from where you j.214B'd

 

I've yet to see or try this j.2D for roll catching, you'd probably have to ask him or show me a video.

 

If I had to figure it out for my self I'd say watch for 41236B>microdash, the amount of time before he cancels j.236C into j.214B, and the distance he falls before executing the airdash.

[Dusty]

Makoto, Izayoi, Carl, Rachel, Bang, Bullet, Platinum, Noel, Arakune, Kokonoe are all the problem characters it doesnt work on. If tney block the fuzzy, a falling j.B is still yout main followup, but if there's a gap on IB I think it safejumps. You still get about 3.5k damage from a fuzzy

Fuzzy works on ALL of these characters except for koko I just training mode'd it. She has god hit box...

The Fuzzy is the best option because of how it complements relius' playstyle. Like how you guys said before one of our other best forms of mix up is frametraping (Mashers.....fuck those guys lol). Relius' standard mix up is pretty react-able to, but his strength is his pressure is gapless unless the player chooses to leave a gap. The down side is we are limited by a meter that we generally have to use for pressure AND combos. Players who know to match-up tend to just sit there block and wait it out because you can't go on forever and make you waste the doll meter. If they block for a long enough time even if they get hit in the end you get a pretty shitty combo and no ignis oki. Now if you throw a GAPLESS 50/50 into the mix, this puts a TON of mental pressure on your opponent. If your opponent chooses to sit there and block you force them to guess and even if they guess correctly they still have to sit there and possibly guess the fuzzy again depending on your doll meter, if they get hit they have to eat about 3k and corner knock-down.

 

Now if I'm the opponent I'm thinking in my head "I'm DEFIANTLY not going to sit there and flip coins vs. my opponent for 15-20 seconds. I need to get out." That's when you can throw in the frametraps because instead of being patient, the opponent is now antsy and isn't going to make the smartest decisions because you showed him sitting there is not a good idea (which is the opposite of how to match up is supposed to be played).

 

NOW ON TOP OF THAT, even if they don't get antsy and they stay calm when you frametrap YOU GET TO KEEP GOING. (Depending on meter ofcourse.)

 

Unless you get DP'd, but then that's you're fault. Should have baited that shit bro.

[Errol]

koko's standing and crouching guardbox and hurtboxes are super annoying. Such a beta character.