[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[shtkn]

new dust followup just looks like a simplified way to do impossible dust combos. i'm fine with that

[Kyle]

Was there another Xrd video? I swear I thought I saw Gunflame in a video, but it's not in the XRD reveal trailer 2:52

[Elochai]

I really like the idea of RCing anything as well. I would agree in that it seems "simple" on the surface, but I can only imagine the amount of shenanigans that will be produced.

[Silmerion]

I guess I'll point out that the new meter could be a reworked guard bar, i.e. it now fills from zero to full and they just calculate damage proration some other way when the guard bar is empty.

I'm just sayin', I totally called the R.I.S.C. Rating system.

RCing anything (probably coupled with a reworked Tension pulse) seems like a potentially very nice replacement for FRCs.

[Kyle]

I found this on the bottom of this page:

GUILTY GEAR Xrd -SIGN- 筐体の撮影（動画・静止画を問わず）は禁止させて頂きます。

http://ggxrd.com/wanted/

Translation says, no pics or videos during the Lok-test. You will be banned. Good luck to the participants.

[ZenTzen]

it was the same thing during BBCP loketests, people still got footage of it and i hope they can provide it to us, i really need to see this game in motion

also, are FRCs out of this or will they implement them later along with the YRCs

[Blade]

Is Kudakeru(214K) a divekick? Please let it be a divekick.

I'm pretty sure it is. Based on Sol's Overture Moveset.

The other move he had was Chikaramakase ni Nagiharu [Mighty Mowdown].

P.B.B. might be "Powered Blockhead Buster" or so I think.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Blade

[Rhannmah]

Translation says, no pics or videos during the Lok-test. You will be banned. Good luck to the participants.

As usual, yet there are almost always pics and videos cropping up.

I still don't understand why would game companies (japanese companies are very guilty of this) not let people film loketests, which are basically public events. It makes no sense, it's free publicity. But considering ArcSys's utter retardation when it comes to PR and advertisement, especially in respect to the internet age, i don't find it all that surprising.

[SoWL]

I can only hope that ASW themselves will provide some new footage of the game, since that's exactly what people want at this point.

[Silmerion]

Translation says, no pics or videos during the Lok-test.

Everyone will certainly follow that rule. Darn, Arcsys has foiled us again.

[Rhiya]

Being able to RC anything at any time just sounds like a recipe for disaster. It's way too loose, and I think it'll honestly increase exec requirements in the long term, rather than decrease them.

And it's not a simplification of FRCs at all. FRCs cancelled your move at the frame you hit the button.

This obviously isn't -exactly- how the timing goes, since that's impossible, but it'll make it easier to show my point.

You were cancelling it x frames into the move to get a specific effect. New RCs would still require you to hit it at exactly frame X to get the effect you want. There's no difference, except you're paying more meter.

The increased meter cost and the ensuing balance headaches make this look like a downgrade from FRCs, not an upgrade.

[Blade]

Doesn't mean ARC can't stream it themselves at a later date. Just be patient guys.

[shinr]

To those who think that the entire XX cast will return in the final product: while creating and using new 3D models is cheaper and faster than the drawing full 2D spritesheets, it is certainly not cheap and fast, and Arc is not as rich as Capcom. So it is unlikely that we will see everyone from the get go.

[Kyle]

@Dusk.

Think of it this way, you can now FRC on the first active frame and have more of an advantage. That is why it cost 50%

[Circuitous]

Being able to RC anything at any time just sounds like a recipe for disaster. It's way too loose, and I think it'll honestly increase exec requirements in the long term, rather than decrease them.

And it's not a simplification of FRCs at all. FRCs cancelled your move at the frame you hit the button.

This obviously isn't -exactly- how the timing goes, since that's impossible, but it'll make it easier to show my point.

You were cancelling it x frames into the move to get a specific effect. New RCs would still require you to hit it at exactly frame X to get the effect you want. There's no difference, except you're paying more meter.

The increased meter cost and the ensuing balance headaches make this look like a downgrade from FRCs, not an upgrade.

But they slow down time. Exact timing becomes irrelevant in the face of reality-warping powers.

[Powerstar7]

YRCs slow down time for the opponents with no timing requirements and can be done with any move? Eddie and Millia mains are going to adore this game.

[Rhiya]

@Dusk.

Think of it this way, you can now FRC on the first active frame and have more of an advantage. That is why it cost 50%

Err, you could already RC moves on hit/block on frame 2, right? That's just a +1 difference from before. It's relevant in some cases, sure, but I don't see how it justifies the increased cost compared to an FRC, and it really doesn't justify the bizarre shenanigans it's bound to cause.

But they slow down time. Exact timing becomes irrelevant in the face of reality-warping powers.

You'd still have to hit the button to trigger it at the right time. I'm not sure I get why the slowdown makes things easier, unless you're just saying that the sheer power of the ensuing slowdown would make up for lax timing. Even if it did, you'd still be trying to RC at the most advantageous time possible.

[Kyle]

@Dusk- you couldn't RC moves on whiff

[Silmerion]

Err, you could already RC moves on hit/block on frame 2, right? That's just a +1 difference from before. It's relevant in some cases, sure, but I don't see how it justifies the increased cost compared to an FRC, and it really doesn't justify the bizarre shenanigans it's bound to cause.

Formerly FRCable moves now needing to be RCed just means we have to re-evaluate how to spend our meter, and also that Arc will either need to re-balance tensionless combo options or give us more tension in general. Not anything too hard to overcome, just something we're not used to yet.

You'd still have to hit the button to trigger it at the right time. I'm not sure I get why the slowdown makes things easier, unless you're just saying that the sheer power of the ensuing slowdown would make up for lax timing. Even if it did, you'd still be trying to RC at the most advantageous time possible.

Yes, but we mustn't underestimate the appeal of no longer requiring two-frame timing of every newbie.

[Rhiya]

@Dusk- you couldn't RC moves on whiff

I know this. I was going through your specific example. I assumed you were talking about it hitting, since you talked about frame advantage.

Being able to RC -anything- on whiff is part of why I called the system a balance headache.

Formerly FRCable moves now needing to be RCed just means we have to re-evaluate how to spend our meter, and also that Arc will either need to re-balance tensionless combo options or give us more tension in general. Not anything too hard to overcome, just something we're not used to yet.

My gut says it's strictly worse. The way tension works in GG right now is excellent, and removing options for spending meter is just going to make GG less meter-centric and less interesting. Meter management is one of the big reasons current GG is a solid game. Kicking 25% moves to the curb entirely is going to damage that. (No forcebreaks listed, no FRCs, so no moves costing 25%.)

Yes, but we mustn't underestimate the appeal of no longer requiring two-frame timing of every newbie.

Even if it's not -strictly- required, there's no difference at high-level play. You'll still be grinding to get the right RC timing, since there's going to be moves with multiple effects depending on RC time, and moves that are excellent when RC'd at frames X-Y but weak if RC'd on frame Z and later or before frame W. It's friendlier to newbies, but it's doing it by mucking up the current balance while penalizing the current high level of play by making an action that used to cost 25% cost 50%. Yes, you can now "FRC" every move for 50%, but that's not worth losing current FRCs over.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Silmerion]

My gut says it's strictly worse. The way tension works in GG right now is excellent, and removing options for spending meter is just going to make GG less meter-centric and less interesting. Meter management is one of the big reasons current GG is a solid game. Kicking 25% moves to the curb entirely is going to damage that. (No forcebreaks listed, no FRCs, so no moves costing 25%.)

Even if it's not -strictly- required, there's no difference at high-level play. You'll still be grinding to get the right RC timing, since there's going to be moves with multiple effects depending on RC time, and moves that are excellent when RC'd at frames X-Y but weak if RC'd on frame Z and later or before frame W. It's friendlier to newbies, but it's doing it by mucking up the current balance while penalizing the current high level of play by making an action that used to cost 25% cost 50%. Yes, you can now "FRC" every move for 50%, but that's not worth losing current FRCs over.

A couple of points here:

1) I firmly believe that the game can accomodate any system well with the right number tweaks. Arc has a good track record with that, so I'm inclined to be cautiously optimistic that they won't break their own game.

2) Making big combos cost 50% by default actually encourages tighter meter management and makes the game more meter-centric. Suddenly, it becomes even harder to know when to FD and DAA and such (and as to FDing, it now becomes way better to know how to press, rather than hold, FD, which makes for a mechanically deeper high-level metagame!). Tougher choices always encourages tighter play.

[Orrax]

I'm actually curious to see where this "yellow RC" goes. If you can RC any more before during startup, before it even lands, couldn't you RC dusts? So, something like "5D -> YRC before the dust goes active -> low" sounds like it would be a very strong (albeit expensive) mixup. But people should still be able to react to it with DP/jump/backdash. Scratch that, slow-down would mess it up.

However, it does sound like unsafe moves could be made difficult to punish when someone has meter. I.E. Riot Stomp full screen -> YRC just before it lands -> 2D if you saw someone doing 6P during the slow down, or whatever. Not really sure how I feel about this.

EDIT: And if the other player has meter, I guess they could YRC in response? Hmm, really not sure how I feel about this.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Orrax

[Rhiya]

A couple of points here:

1) I firmly believe that the game can accomodate any system well with the right number tweaks. Arc has a good track record with that, so I'm inclined to be cautiously optimistic that they won't break their own game.

I won't deny that either. I think it's possible to do this well. I just think it's harder.

A lot harder.

2) Making big combos cost 50% by default actually encourages tighter meter management and makes the game more meter-centric. Suddenly, it becomes even harder to know when to FD and DAA and such (and as to FDing, it now becomes way better to know how to press, rather than hold, FD, which makes for a mechanically deeper high-level metagame!). Tougher choices always encourages tighter play.

This, I completely disagree with. Right now, there's a plethora of tradeoffs you need to choose between, and you're losing that. Basically, the 25% and 75% points on the bar, which were big deals and things that mattered to you because of your FRCs, will no longer matter in the same way. You also won't choose between doing an FRC now and a DAA later, or blowing your 50% meter on one really tricky RC or holding it for multiple FRC shenanigans and combos. It removes decision points, and that encourages a weaker meter management game.

I doubt the ensuing changes to optimal FD use will make up for that loss.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Kyle]

@orrax: I image that YRC are only possible on certain moves, to minimize the chaos you're trying to detail. =P

[Silmerion]

This, I completely disagree with. Right now, there's a plethora of tradeoffs you need to choose between, and you're losing that. Basically, the 25% and 75% points on the bar, which were big deals and things that mattered to you because of your FRCs, will no longer matter in the same way. You also won't choose between doing an FRC now and a DAA later, or blowing your 50% meter on one really tricky RC or holding it for multiple FRC shenanigans and combos. It removes decision points, and that encourages a weaker meter management game.

I doubt the ensuing changes to optimal FD use will make up for that loss.

You're at 75% meter. Your opponent has been beating you down pretty badly and has you in the corner. You're both out of burst. You see your opponent about to commit to an attack. Do you DAA or hope to weather the pressure? How about with the new RC system?

Removing decision points can actually make the game harder.