[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[SolxBaiken]

I don't "need" the story retold to me personally, I just think it'd be a nice thing to have, especially with ARC attempting to be more story centric, I mean if you can retell Calamity Trigger 10x would it be the end of the world to retell any part of GG? Especially considering the possible production value that could be had in it. It'd be something like Justice's story mode in XX, they didn't need to do that at all, but it was really nice to have.

[Kitsoru]

I don't "need" the story retold to me personally, I just think it'd be a nice thing to have, especially with ARC attempting to be more story centric, I mean if you can retell Calamity Trigger 10x would it be the end of the world to retell any part of GG? Especially considering the possible production value that could be had in it. It'd be something like Justice's story mode in XX, they didn't need to do that at all, but it was really nice to have.

Ok... well, that's not what a reboot is at all, that's just a retelling. A reboot is when you start from scratch, discarding all the old story information. Not retelling them. And yeah, that's what Justice, Kliff and HOS's storymodes are and that's their purpose, to catch you up on the most important aspects of the current GG plot. AC+ even provided prologues for each characters' story at the beginning to remind you what they were doing, and where they're going. It's already being spoonfed to you.

I'm sure there will be some kind of prologue about Overture's events in Xrd (it's WAY too early to jump the gun on this), maybe even quick mentions of the above, AGAIN, and then still the only things you'd be missing plotwise are supplementals that are important to the flavor of the plot, but that you really don't need to know the details of to get the story. So, you have the Crusades and GG1 retold in AC+, you have the 3 scientists' stories, the main backstory, retold in Overture. Does Xrd need to retell them a third time? I really don't think so.

edit: Look, here's my problem with what you're saying. Do we expect books in a series to retell the entire story again from the last book before getting to the new content? No? ...Then why should games?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Kitsoru

[SolxBaiken]

I never used the word "reboot" that was Mumm-Ra, I said redux which is different.

Also yes, I do think that Xrd could benefit from retelling the broad strokes of the story, and no not just for the core parties involved, but for EVERYONE because---especially with AC+---it felt like alot of characters had lost purpose and clear direction. Also you need to stop thinking that only people who have invested previously into GG [story] are the only ones who will be interested in it [the story]. Like I said, this is an iteration for a whole new generation and market. Which is what makes games unique [more so than movies and alot more than books] which is why reboots are more frequent. Xrd doesn't even need to go an reenact scenes fully, if it brought a comprehensive in-game database/library that'd be wonderful too [similar to what they're planning with CP and what Jojo's All Star Battle has]. This should be a celebration of GG's history, so I see no need to not explore it for both old and new consumers alike. You act as if something will be taken away by doing so...

[Kitsoru]

I never used the word "reboot" that was Mumm-Ra, I said redux which is different.

Also yes, I do think that Xrd could benefit from retelling the broad strokes of the story, and no not just for the core parties involved, but for EVERYONE because---especially with AC+---it felt like alot of characters had lost purpose and clear direction. Also you need to stop thinking that only people who have invested previously into GG [story] are the only ones who will be interested in it [the story]. Like I said, this is an iteration for a whole new generation and market. Which is what makes games unique [more so than movies and alot more than books] which is why reboots are more frequent. Xrd doesn't even need to go an reenact scenes fully, if it brought a comprehensive in-game database/library that'd be wonderful too [similar to what they're planning with CP and what Jojo's All Star Battle has]. This should be a celebration of GG's history, so I see no need to not explore it for both old and new consumers alike. You act as if something will be taken away by doing so...

Yes... and that's what I was responding to in that original comment, so...

What do you do when you get into a book series in the middle of a later book? Or since you mentioned it, say you started reading Jojo's with SBR, and you want to get the references made to Parts 1-6, what do you do? You go back and read the old books, the old chapters. You don't expect to be fed the old content in the new content, do you?

You keep saying you want a 'streamlined' version of the story. I told you: they just gave us one in AC+ with the extra storymodes. Do they need to retell the story over and over and over again in every single game now, aside from maybe a quick refresher of recent events? No, they don't. There's no reason that new players should expect to be given the story they missed in every new installment, instead of seeking it back out themselves in the older games, like you would any other media. Games themselves get "rebooted" all the time, sure- in that the gameplay is rebooted, because they're games. That's the main feature, the reason the story is being told interactively and not in a book, you're supposed to play it, and they need to keep that gameplay fresh. What you're saying about gameplay reboots is a totally separate issue from the story, which by its nature gets extended every game and is therefore already fresh.

[shinr]

You keep saying you want a 'streamlined' version of the story. I told you: they just gave us one in AC+ with the extra storymodes. Do they need to retell the story over and over and over again in every single game now, aside from maybe a quick refresher of recent events? No, they don't.

The problem is, AC+ was released in '08, and those who bough its later re-releases mostly consisted of old guard fans, and the franchise was basically in semi-hibernation while BB stole the spotlight for next 5 years. Xrd is for all intents and purposes a brand relaunch, with the aim to both bring back a lot of old retired-from-GG veterans and to attract a new, broader audience, so like it or not an extensive story recap for the home release is quite likely.

[Tari]

There's no real reason for them not to, at the very least, include a short summary of the storylines from previous games. It could be in one of those extra gallery unlocks or whatever that you get in other games nowadays.

Regardless of that, this is barely even relevant to Xrd anymore. The argument of whether they should or shouldn't include a story recap is pretty pointless. They will if they want to and they won't if they don't.

[Dreiko]

I don't see Xrd as anything other than a sequel. It's presumed simplification or what have you is merely in keeping in line with modern fighter waves and so it can fit in rather than feel like a game frozen in the past. I believe even if they had kept making new main game GGs until now, GG would have slowly but surely ended up being what Xrd is going to be in this point in time. This is why I see little point in character specilation or worry too btw. I'm fairly sure they'd include most if not all and I'm an Order Sol main who according to people is one of the most likely to get the axe yet I don't really feel that worried. I'm just excited to see the new cool stuff he'll get.

[Mumm-Ra]

They need to reboot the story since it's a clusterfuck of things that don't make any sense and never interact with each other, the assassin guild, jellyfish pirates, Zappa, ABA, everyone else? Why is Jam still relevant? After the "Justice is demons" plot everything went to shit. Whenever the characters interact it feels pretty forced and unnatural, like they don't know each other, the series have been going for 15 years and characters still don't call each other by their names fucks sake, and don't tell me to go read a book or listen to a Drama CD or whatever, that's a terrible way to tell your story. The good thing is that the gameplay is good so the plot doesn't matter at all, Lol fighting games.

Also they should just turn Order Sol into Robo-Sol and be done with it, I don't think anyone would prefer the old one over motherfucking Robo-Sol.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Mumm-Ra

[Blade]

You know, what with the way games are being tightly presented nowadays, it's not that hard to fit multiple storylines into a single package. BlazBlue CS Extend's "Calamity Trigger Reconstruction" is a pretty good example of that.

If they reboot the story, they might do it from Accent Core onwards since that's the most relevant story in everyone's minds.

Then again, they could get away with doing several stories based on GG's Timeline of events.

--Crusades (Retold) <<Sol/Ky/Kliff/Justice/Axl/Slayer/Flament Nagel/Testament/I-No>>

--Night of Knives (Retold) <<Millia/Zato/Venom/Slayer>>

--The Missing Link (Retold) <<GG Cast>>

--Lightning the Argent (and Xtra) <<Ky/Sol/Faust/Raven/Johnny/Baiken/Anji/Axl/Potemkin>>

--By Your Side (Retold) <<GGX Cast>

--Midnight Carnival (Retold) <<GGXX Cast>>

--Butterfly and Her Gale (Retold) <<Chipp/Venom/Potemkin>>

--Overture (Retold) <<GG2 Cast>>

That would essentially cover the timeline up to this point (and any required fights for each said story).

Edited August 19, 2013 by Blade

[Pichy]

If the Crusades are ever going to be retold in full, it's damn well going to be as a JRPG starring 14 year old Kliff that details his rise to greatness in full, gory detail.

[Agni]

If the Crusades are ever going to be retold in full, it's damn well going to be as a JRPG starring 14 year old Kliff that details his rise to greatness in full, gory detail.

Could happen, Daisuke loves RPGs, hell, BB was supposed to be an RPG and apparently even GG itself might have been, but I may have bad sources.

[Kitsoru]

The problem is, AC+ was released in '08, and those who bough its later re-releases mostly consisted of old guard fans, and the franchise was basically in semi-hibernation while BB stole the spotlight for next 5 years. Xrd is for all intents and purposes a brand relaunch, with the aim to both bring back a lot of old retired-from-GG veterans and to attract a new, broader audience, so like it or not an extensive story recap for the home release is quite likely.

It's in the current game, what are you talking about?? The latest installment is R, which you download as a patch to the very same game you play AC+'s storymode in. That's a shit excuse when it's still in the current game as-played. Even if you're talking about people who only play arcades and not console, that still doesn't matter because you need console to play any part of the story anyway.

and don't tell me to go read a book or listen to a Drama CD or whatever, that's a terrible way to tell your story.

So you're lazy and want to be spoonfed, yes, that's what I said.

Regardless of that, this is barely even relevant to Xrd anymore. The argument of whether they should or shouldn't include a story recap is pretty pointless. They will if they want to and they won't if they don't.

This, thank you. Arc has no obligation to do so and the whining about it is completely stupid.

Could happen, Daisuke loves RPGs, hell, BB was supposed to be an RPG and apparently even GG itself might have been, but I may have bad sources.

That's what Overture was. After that bombed so badly, I doubt they're going to try it again.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

That's what Overture was. After that bombed so badly, I doubt they're going to try it again.

It did not bombed that badly, in Japan sold quite well (USA sales was really bad thou)

Also, can we please remeains in topic and talk about xrd? I guess we do have a general therad for GG story, etc etc

[redsilversnake]

Could happen, Daisuke loves RPGs, hell, BB was supposed to be an RPG and apparently even GG itself might have been, but I may have bad sources.

TV Tropes is still the only source I know of that says BB was going to be an RPG, and they've been blatantly wrong on multiple occasions, so yeah, not that good a source. Likewise, Ishiwatari has said that GG was a fighting game from the get-go.

Anyway, to stay on topic, hope the promised Osaka loketest comes soon.

With Dizzy. Please include Dizzy, ArcSys.

Edited August 20, 2013 by redsilversnake

[Fenris]

I sure hope that Xrd includes a retelling of the series' main events up 'til now; at this point, the plot is all over the place, and it is in desperate need of summary and direction...

[ElvenShadow]

Right now console version is a long way off and for the arcade version story mode doesn't matter at all. I couldn't care less how relevant a character is to the plot in a fighting game. Characters should be included due to design and balance reasons and because they are fun to use. Once console version is out they can slap on whatever stuff in story mode and I won't play story mode anyway lol. VS mode all day everyday!

[BladeOfJustice7]

Right now console version is a long way off and for the arcade version story mode doesn't matter at all. I couldn't care less how relevant a character is to the plot in a fighting game. Characters should be included due to design and balance reasons and because they are fun to use. Once console version is out they can slap on whatever stuff in story mode and I won't play story mode anyway lol. VS mode all day everyday!

As long as I don't have to wait over a year after the Arcade release for the Console release of the game (like BBCP), I'll be fine.

[LeonD]

You know, what with the way games are being tightly presented nowadays, it's not that hard to fit multiple storylines into a single package. BlazBlue CS Extend's "Calamity Trigger Reconstruction" is a pretty good example of that.

If they reboot the story, they might do it from Accent Core onwards since that's the most relevant story in everyone's minds.

Then again, they could get away with doing several stories based on GG's Timeline of events.

--Crusades (Retold) <<Sol/Ky/Kliff/Justice/Axl/Slayer/Flament Nagel/Testament/I-No>>

--Night of Knives (Retold) <<Millia/Zato/Venom/Slayer>>

--The Missing Link (Retold) <<GG Cast>>

--Lightning the Argent (and Xtra) <<Ky/Sol/Faust/Raven/Johnny/Baiken/Anji/Axl/Potemkin>>

--By Your Side (Retold) <<GGX Cast>

--Midnight Carnival (Retold) <<GGXX Cast>>

--Butterfly and Her Gale (Retold) <<Chipp/Venom/Potemkin>>

--Overture (Retold) <<GG2 Cast>>

That would essentially cover the timeline up to this point (and any required fights for each said story).

Oh god please do this!!!

It would be absolute joy if ArcSys decide to do it... :yaaay:

EDIT: 3D NoK...

[LeonD]

As long as I don't have to wait over a year after the Arcade release for the Console release of the game (like BBCP), I'll be fine.

Off-topic a bit but...

NO JUBEII OR KONOE OR PHANTOM OR KOKONOE OR IMPERATOR?!?!?!??!?

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Stories are what keep some gamers hooked to a game. Gameplay only takes you so far before it gets dull and repetitive. Stories set the THEME and MOOD of the fight.

Not saying that design and such do not count at all in a FG, but...

So, the people who kept playing AC in arcades was here just for the story?

Or, by expanding a little, why i can't see story DLC in chess?

Is that a Blade moment?

Also, considering that this is "[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion", can we stay on topic?

Anyway, I'm expecting another locktest soon, maybe in Osaka or such?

From GGXRD site, roughly translated :

"This is the end of this first location test! Tank you very much for your participation!!

We are currently in preparation for a second one. Please wait for the announcement!"

They are probably gonna test new characters little by little as they are finished, as well as new mechanics

[redsilversnake]

Is that a Blade moment?

There is only one answer to this question.

Anyway, I'm expecting another locktest soon, maybe in Osaka or such?

"Soon" is probably stretching it, but I think either Ishiwatari or Pachi said that Osaka has a good GG scene, so they were planning on holding the next one there.

[Digital Watches]

I think Blade's on to something. Unfortunately, most fighting game VS modes have a pretty repetitive story, mostly made up of combat that doesn't make sense. After all, how does a guy who Sol just punched in the stomach and lit on fire a bunch of times in a row get up and keep fighting? And for that matter, how come you can get knocked out and then play another match after you've already lost?

These are confusing continuity errors, lapses in realism, and outright plot holes that someone needs to address. Fortunately, GG's story provides us with a powerful tool for doing this: Time Shenanigans. When I'm playing a bunch of matches in a row, sometimes it gets really hard to keep up willing suspension of disbelief. I mean, after taking all of those beatings and losing all of those times, people just get up and fight again, like nothing happened and nothing was resolved. Fortunately for me, I play a character who travels in time, so I can justify all of this as Axl being stuck in various time loops that cause him to fight people over and over again.

Unfortunately, while this works for people who play Axl and I-No, it's a lot more confusing for people who play any other character, leaving us a greater challenge while resolving these plot holes. Luckily, Robert A. Heinlein has a foolproof solution that ties up all loose ends. Given that time travel seems to factor into the storyline of every character in versus mode, it's easy to conclude, as I have argued before, that every character in the Guilty Gear continuity is a clone, descendant, or alternate-universe version of Axl or I-No (Or possibly these two are in fact the same character as well), and thus have untapped time-travel potential that causes them to loop through time without even knowing it. This is clearly the story that's being conveyed, and is the compelling narrative that keeps me interested in GG.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[ElvenShadow]

Watches wins this thread (btw I'm a Faust player so I use my medical skills to heal between rounds!)

Of course things like character design and backstory and themes all enhance the experience. I love GG's char designs and all the metal references but I couldn't give 2 shits about how the actual story line progresses. I love a good story as much as anyone. If I want a good story ill play an RPG. I play fighting games for the competitive aspect. I play most video games because I like the gameplay. Story is nice but it's just a bonus, especially in a fighting game.

I'm hoping they will have an updated build of Xrd at TGS on the weekend of the 21st next month. If they do, I plan to go.

[Rhiya]

Doesn't mean it doesn't HAVE to attempt it.

I never liked this "well, this genre never did it before, clearly it's not needed" idea. Yes, GG would be a great FG without the plotline. But the plotline that IS there makes it even better, at least in my eyes.

The core of a fighter is 2P versus. For better or worse, everything else is just there to make it easier to play the 2P versus, to help move product on console, or to bring more yen coins to the machine. GG's no exception. The story isn't integral to the core gameplay, though it's nice to have, and makes for a more polished end product -- and polish helps a product stand out, which makes it just loop back around to profit.

I haven't touched a single player mode (other than training) in any ArcSys game other than Calamity Trigger.

[Fenris]

Lately I've been in it for the story, especially if it's quite decent when compared with, let's say, the Street Fighter series. It is for this reason that I wish that story-heavy fighting games would just branch off and become a genre all their own or something.

---

On topic, though: Can anyone confirm if any of the GG2 Overture are characters going to make it into the roster? (Sorry, I haven't been keeping tabs on the latest Xrd news and such, but I shall at some point...)