Ronove Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 So it's basically a characters general game plan? No, not just that. As I said, it's the quality of a character's moveset and options and the risk/reward attached to it in every situation (neutral, defense, abare, offense). But this is a really badly summarized version of what tachimawari implies. There's a reason why there are longass articles in japanese, and it's because it's something you just can't easily convey in one sentence. I'm condensing and leaving out a lot of details because it's a concept that cannot be easily summarized. Once I'll be done translating that article I'll post it here somewhere (or ask the staff to put it as article on DL's frontpage). You can think of this backwards: the more you're forced to respect another character in a wider variety of situations (defense, offense, neutral, movement etc) the better his tachimawari is, because it means that he/she gets a better reward (at your expenses) than you do.
Casper Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 you guys know when mikado is gonna start streaming xrd again?
Goldenrody Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 you guys know when mikado is gonna start streaming xrd again? If you look at their archives, you'll see that they have already resumed streaming Xrd since yesterday. They took a break from Xrd to stream the 5 day +R only Mikado Masters WGC event. But they are back to their normal schedule now
Dandy J Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 theres an english word for that its called 'strength'
Destin Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 That's a pretty broad definition for the word. How does it differ from just being a good word? I don't think faust has exceptionally strong rush down or defense, he just has a strong neutral game.
Abominable K Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 theres an english word for that its called 'strength' Either this or "control".
Circuitous Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Read an article explaining all the intricacies that a particular Japanese word implies, or just call the character strong, a word whose myriad implications for a fighting game character are already known to this audience.What a silly discussion this has become.I wonder if any strong Potemkin players moved on. Consomme and FAB haven't wavered. Haven't seen much of Haaken in Xrd.
Skyheartxia Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 I wonder if any strong Potemkin players moved on. Consomme and FAB haven't wavered. Haven't seen much of Haaken in Xrd. I don't really know any others, so i cant comment. The one id be interested in is how many new people to Potemkin have done /well/ with potemkin so far. he seems like the eternal struggle atm
Ctrlaltwtf Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 New Potemkins? They make those? I'm working on mine, and I'll definitely be going with Potemkin in Xrd until Johnny shows up. Xrd Potemkin seems really cool with the inclusion of the new RCs so I'm definitely going to make more of an effort with him than in +R
mof0nzo Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 @Ronove: it would be godly if you shared that article once you've translated it.
Ronove Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 It's going to take a while because it's really, really long.
Henaki Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Either this or "control". Yeah this is the more designy term for it. Control doesn't mean power, it just means option subtraction for the other character.
Coffeeling Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 The description doesn't quite match up, though. It seems more like a mixture of pace control and threat. Like, in SF4, Akuma has amazing ability to dictate the pace of the match, but his control gameplan doesn't really deal any damage, so he has to spend a good deal of time engineering an opening to be able to run setups or do a combo on a standing opponent to score any real damage. Meanwhile, Cammy's ability to exert control, per se, isn't that great but the threat of the quite autopilot-y Cammy Train (divekick=>series of heavy buttons that works just as well as a high damage+stun combo and solid frame traps if you drop it => knockdown, repeat) is so huge people have to play very on point or they end up in a very deep hole or just plain dead. Tachimawari, from what little was said about it on this page, seems to include both concepts, as well as some ability to defend your space reactively and not just oppressing the opponent like in the above examples.
Henaki Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 That still sounds like control, your examples are just where they have it... it's a fine word. If you want to get really nuanced, authority might be a better term for it, but control is more elegant. Control: Option reduction. Authority: Having more options to respect.
Ronove Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Control is probably the closest thing to "tachimawari", just keep in mind that when they talk about it it's always strictly correlated with risk/reward.For instance, Chipp is regarded as having a good tachimawari because he has good normals, teleports (and now "invisibility" too), speed, he can easily disrupt an opponent's flow but his reward, besides switching momentum in his favour, is not as amazing as others', so it's likely that certain characters won't still respect some of Chipp's choices because of this. Sol is up there because he's well rounded and he gets a good to great reward from a good variety of scenarios and he doesn't really need to take huge risks.A few weeks ago Eki-chan was making a short comparison on twitter between Sol and Ky and pretty much the difference on which character felt slightly "better" boiled down to that. Both with good tachimawari, but Sol with much better reward compared to Ky.I guess this is also one of the reasons why Eki-chan switched from Millia to Faust, as he was complaining he was having a tough time fighting Sol/Ky since these characters just won't respect Millia at all, he found Faust to be a good character to keep control without getting frustrated.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 @Ronove, I can imagine about eki-chan. I saw hit sets with korochan and seemed to have a hard time making Sol respect his oki, which he didn't have to. If Millia is blocked or hit, tandem top disappears, so he just needs to alternate between his dps. Tandem top disappearing if she blocks I find is a huge problem for Millia, I don't think it was like that in prior iterations of GG was it? Though things might change as people figure out more tools in the game, we're only approaching the third month of this game's life cycle if I'm correct. Still room for the cast to grow, but Sol indeed does have a much stranger and safer neutral game, which used to be one of his main weaknesses.
Ronove Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 @BladeOfJustice7Actually Sol can DP out of Millia's H disc in AC/ACPR too in certain situations. The matchup used to be fairly "even" in AC/ACPR. What's hurting Millia in Xrd against Sol is likely the fact that besides not having FB Pretty Maze, she has trouble setting up Secret Garden oki because of the changes to her pin's speed. And because of the pin being slower she has more trouble getting in, given that Sol's normals are still damn good. Of course she can YRC her H disc to mess the opponent's DP input but it's not like she can always rely on that. She can hard bait it of course, but that's not the biggest issue but rather the fact that Sol only needs one good hit to turn the tides while Millia has to work harder and can still lose despite that.Anyway Eki-chan's biggest regret was that with no solid Secret Garden setups it's hard to keep momentum against characters like Sol or Ky. It's also true though that other players have been working on ways to get decent Secret Garden oki (it's also one the things that seems to have reignited Nakamura's interest in Xrd, lol), so who knows, things might change within the next months and the matchup might suddenly not look so bad for Millia as Eki-chan depicts it. There's Daiji who's been constantly having live NicoNico streams where he's analyzing his own vids, discussing Millia's strategies and possibly new combos. You can already see him trying to set up Secret Garden oki in one of his most recent vids if I am not wrong (the Port24 Issha ones).
NesmerII Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Watched some of HEVEN's Venom gameplay recently. Really entertaining. I'm starting to think Venom and Millia are my favorite characters to watch now that FAB is trying to fight his way out of the low-tier shithouse.
D.R.F. Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 FAB does not try. He does Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
NesmerII Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 FAB does not try. He does Touche'. That he does.
D.R.F. Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Okay excuse me.konsome too Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
BladeOfJustice7 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 @BladeOfJustice7 Actually Sol can DP out of Millia's H disc in AC/ACPR too in certain situations. The matchup used to be fairly "even" in AC/ACPR. What's hurting Millia in Xrd against Sol is likely the fact that besides not having FB Pretty Maze, she has trouble setting up Secret Garden oki because of the changes to her pin's speed. And because of the pin being slower she has more trouble getting in, given that Sol's normals are still damn good. Of course she can YRC her H disc to mess the opponent's DP input but it's not like she can always rely on that. She can hard bait it of course, but that's not the biggest issue but rather the fact that Sol only needs one good hit to turn the tides while Millia has to work harder and can still lose despite that. Anyway Eki-chan's biggest regret was that with no solid Secret Garden setups it's hard to keep momentum against characters like Sol or Ky. It's also true though that other players have been working on ways to get decent Secret Garden oki (it's also one the things that seems to have reignited Nakamura's interest in Xrd, lol), so who knows, things might change within the next months and the matchup might suddenly not look so bad for Millia as Eki-chan depicts it. There's Daiji who's been constantly having live NicoNico streams where he's analyzing his own vids, discussing Millia's strategies and possibly new combos. You can already see him trying to set up Secret Garden oki in one of his most recent vids if I am not wrong (the Port24 Issha ones). been seeing those Secret Garden mixup attempts as well. Off topic: why don't I see people faultless dash break in Xrd, something changed about the dash mechanic in the game I'm unaware of?
D.R.F. Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I think people just don't recognize it or something, which is odd Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Delrian Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 been seeing those Secret Garden mixup attempts as well. Off topic: why don't I see people faultless dash break in Xrd, something changed about the dash mechanic in the game I'm unaware of? It could be the higher costs for faultless defense overall, but I haven't looked for it specifically so I don't know if it's possible.
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