[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[redsilversnake]

it might also because of balancing concerns. It's possible they wanted a certain spread of characters to start with to make balancing easier.

>Implying ASW actually cares about balance.

Anyway, whatever Ishiwatari said can be disregarded, since Japanese creators are notorious liars whose words should never be taken at face value.

[SoWL]

That's one hell of a generalization right there, even though Ishiwatari is known to be one of the more open and understanding devs out there. Even still, he is but a single man, so his decisions have to go through quite a few people.

[axel]

Wow good to know why Chipp was so ass, and was never really used/good. ACR seems to be his strongest iteration from what I've seen.

I feel that Chipp is strongest in Slash, his j.D was pretty ridiculous, almost like Slayer's j.HS.

[BladeOfJustice7]

snip

Very good post and I could agree to that honestly. Order Sol, obviously for instance, is very much close in playstyle to Sol. Now that I think about it the cast IS very diverse for a 13 character roster.

Fixed.

Lol.

By the by, has anybody caught any footage of M.O.M mode that folks know of? I was curious if it functions the same as in previous games or if they've changed things up for Xrd at all.

Could someone explain to me what the fuck is so bloody amazing about MOM, I keep seeing people talk about it. And it's in like every GG as far as my memory can go.

>Implying ASW actually cares about balance.

Anyway, whatever Ishiwatari said can be disregarded, since Japanese creators are notorious liars whose words should never be taken at face value.

Wow, cynical vigilante much?

I feel that Chipp is strongest in Slash, his j.D was pretty ridiculous, almost like Slayer's j.HS.

Hmmmm I'll check him out. Was Samitto a GG OG who also played Slash, or did he only come in AC?

[sagacious]

Could someone explain to me what the fuck is so bloody amazing about MOM, I keep seeing people talk about it. And it's in like every GG as far as my memory can go.

from what i gather from rumours it's kind of like +r's survival mode where you get upgrades as you progress through the playthrough? which is pretty fun

[redsilversnake]

That's one hell of a generalization right there, even though Ishiwatari is known to be one of the more open and understanding devs out there. Even still, he is but a single man, so his decisions have to go through quite a few people.

I have consistently seen Japanese developers lie in one way or another. Whether or not it's intentional is another matter, but regardless of how upfront they may seem, you should always take more of a wait-and-see approach.

Wow, cynical vigilante much?

Dunno what you mean by "vigilante," but Ishiwatari has been on record as not considering character balance a high priority; to paraphrase his views, he thinks that as long as there aren't 8-2 matchups, it doesn't really matter. And Mori further affirmed that this is a general attitude within the company in his SCR Q&A.

[axel]

Hmmmm I'll check him out. Was Samitto a GG OG who also played Slash, or did he only come in AC?

Never heard of Samitto during Slash, the noticable Chipp players in Slash were Susumu and Nikukyuu.

Edited March 11, 2014 by axel

[Henaki]

I have consistently seen Japanese developers lie in one way or another. Whether or not it's intentional is another matter, but regardless of how upfront they may seem, you should always take more of a wait-and-see approach.

Dunno what you mean by "vigilante," but Ishiwatari has been on record as not considering character balance a high priority; to paraphrase his views, he thinks that as long as there aren't 8-2 matchups, it doesn't really matter. And Mori further affirmed that this is a general attitude within the company in his SCR Q&A.

Source this shit please.

[D.R.F.]

I can kinda agree (need to find article) I remember reading how ishawatari is okay with a bit of imbalance because it makes the game more interesting. It still boggles me that he said this and gg is still one of rhe most balanced games out there

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[Henaki]

Character diversity and varied counterplay are more important than 5-5 matchups across the board IMO.

The goal should definitely be no matchups worse than 4-6 tho.

[STenSatsu]

Eh, they got a pretty good character selection at the start. Lots of bases covered and most of the playstyles are there. A lot of the missing characters have overlapping gameplans with currently playable imo, which is good. Plus, most of the characters are the ones with interesting movesets.

[D.R.F.]

GRAAAAANDO VIPAAAA! Other than that so who do you speculate (story-wise) they will add first?

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[redsilversnake]

Source this shit please.

I unfortunately can't find the article with Ishiwatari's comments, but if Jyosua's archive is still up, the interview with Mori should be freely viewable (and keep in mind that there is some overlap between Team BB and Team Red).

Character diversity and varied counterplay are more important than 5-5 matchups across the board IMO.

The goal should definitely be no matchups worse than 4-6 tho.

I would argue that a diverse/varied cast is meaningless in a game where only a handful of characters actually do that well (BBCP and a few other recent games are perfect examples of this).

However, 4-6 being the worst MUs is indeed an agreeable outcome, realistically. Gaps in competitive games are unavoidable, but ASW's problem has always been the sheer size of those gaps.

It still boggles me that he said this and gg is still one of rhe most balanced games out there

I would say it's less that GG is in and of itself balanced, and more that it's simultaneously more rewarding of good play and more harsh on player failures than most other games. Even weak characters, like Potemkin currently is, can capitalize off of hits and knockdowns in ways characters in other games struggle to, and for potentially higher rewards at that.

Basically, in terms of character balance, GG has always been busted (and Xrd will turn out no differently), it just compensates for that by having a metagame that rewards player skill to a greater extent than many other games do.

[D.R.F.]

I would say it's less that GG is in and of itself balanced, and more that it's simultaneously more rewarding of good play and more harsh on player failures than most other games. Even weak characters, like Potemkin currently is, can capitalize off of hits and knockdowns in ways characters in other games struggle to, and for potentially higher rewards at that.

Basically, in terms of character balance, GG has always been busted (and Xrd will turn out no differently), it just compensates for that by having a metagame that rewards player skill to a greater extent than many other games do.

[Calamitus]

Source this shit please.

"Sometimes however I think a little imbalance is healthy. If all the characters were perfectly balanced would this make a game more fun? I don’t think it would. There is something to be enjoyed in using a ‘weaker’ character to defeat an opponent who is using a ‘stronger’ character – I think that kind of battle can be fun."

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/05/06/all-about-guilty-gear-with-creator-daisuke-ishiwatari/

[STenSatsu]

GRAAAAANDO VIPAAAA! Other than that so who do you speculate (story-wise) they will add first?

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For both story and gameplay reasons I'm going to say they pull characters from Testament/Bridget/Zappa/Dizzy first.

[D.R.F.]

Same here, bridget and zappa. Though I have a feeling if they bring bridget then jam isn't too far away

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[redsilversnake]

I get what your trying to say, and it makes a lot of sense, but for some of those things couldn't you say the same for marvel 3? Just asking, because if your neutral is good enough, you have TOD combos, and good team meta, then you can go far with a <top tier team. I don't play marvel, just asking, because the system mechanics of gg help A LOT with the balance, but most (if not all characters) have a way with dealing with a certain situation

I wouldn't say so. Marvel has always had a much lower focus on neutral, instead placing more emphasis on the aforementioned TOD combos. Its meta is also very different as a result, especially since, from what I understand, at least, most of the cast simply isn't viable, which is why, much like KoFXIII, you tend to see more homogeny among teams, and thus in placings. This is pretty much the opposite of GG (and to some extent, ASW games in general), where even if weaker characters don't manage to make it to semi-finals, it's still possible for them to advance.

For both story and gameplay reasons I'm going to say they pull characters from Testament/Bridget/Zappa/Dizzy first.

This just reminds me of how much I'd bombard ASW with my sig if I had slightly less restraint.

[D.R.F.]

Marvel 2 Yea, but in 3 there are a number of decent characters, just not zero - vergil level. Again, its not like gg were you can win with any character so yea this is true

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[Henaki]

"Sometimes however I think a little imbalance is healthy. If all the characters were perfectly balanced would this make a game more fun? I don’t think it would. There is something to be enjoyed in using a ‘weaker’ character to defeat an opponent who is using a ‘stronger’ character – I think that kind of battle can be fun."

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/05/06/all-about-guilty-gear-with-creator-daisuke-ishiwatari/

Still not sourcing the "not 2-8" bullshit. That seemed like outrageous hyperbole and what I'm looking for a source on.

[reaVer]

I can kinda agree (need to find article) I remember reading how ishawatari is okay with a bit of imbalance because it makes the game more interesting. It still boggles me that he said this and gg is still one of rhe most balanced games out there

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That's because Ishiwatari hasn't participated in GGXX development since #R. Now he's back and from what I saw, we got the near OP Eddie back too.

[D.R.F.]

Seriously? Lol, well I am sure changes will be made in the near future If that bad

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[Destin]

That's because Ishiwatari hasn't participated in GGXX development since #R. Now he's back and from what I saw, we got the near OP Eddie back too.

OP Eddie wasn't nearly as bad as say, sf4 sagat/akuma, AE twins, CvS2 any of the top 5, McCain (any version), alpha (any version)

Yes, Eddie was good (and almost always is), but the matches were winnable. I have played many a capcom game with nearly unwinnable matches. It feels very different.

I think to gg's credit, the worst characters usually are much more viable than in other fighting games. That being said, I think the legendary guilty gear balance is slightly overblown, though still very good.

I think pote should be able to flick drills though!

[D.R.F.]

Anji can win tourneys, nuff said

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[Henaki]

I think pote should be able to flick drills though!

can he not, now?