Still cannot figure out the tension bar in GG or BB.

[Tronotron]

Hello, I've been really enjoying Guilty Gear and BlazBlue for 6 months now , just been playing against the CPU. With my favourite character I can beat all opponents on Hard difficulty in Blazblue and most of them in GG... however I feel I'm not really playing the game right and would get creamed by human opponents because I don't understand how to work the tension bar system and how that relates to the most powerful special/ super moves , and the combos. I notice that some events build up the meter and others take it down but nothing is clear yet. I almost never seem to be able to pull off the most powerful super moves. Also , every character seem to have a slightly different meter . I don't understand what "Respect" does in GG. If I press all 4 attack buttons together the background goes black and there is a red glow around my character, (I usually get punished for doing it) and the meter changes, and says something like "Attack Data" . WTF??

I would love to play against other people, it would be a lot more fun, but I think I would get my ass handed to me.

What I really love in these games is that I can get into an intuitive flow where actions and reactions are nearly instant and I pull off the right moves without having to think about applying specific tricks and understanding all the mechanics. But I think this way of playing will only get me so far, I need to understand the strategy behind the meter and how the special / super moves work.

Any clues?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Tronotron

[Silmerion]

This wiki page has all the naughty details of the Guilty Gear Tension meter. This one covers the Heat Gauge in Blazblue and this one covers the Barrier Gauge.

I can't speak to Blazblue, but in Guilty Gear you gain Tension relatively slowly compared to other Arcsys games, so meter management is very important. The most important things to use meter for are, in no particular order:

1) FRCs and Force Breaks: They're typically important for combos, set-ups, or keeping you safe.

2) Faultless Defense: Push-blocks and prevents chip damage.

3) Dead Angle Attacks: For getting out of pressure.

4) RCs: This one is pretty situational, but sometimes you did a stupid thing and you suddenly need to be safe.

You should, with only character-specific exceptions (Dizzy, Johnny, Bridget, and Slayer all come to mind, but there are more), not be using Overdrives. Their cost/benefit just isn't that great most of the time.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Silmerion

[Tronotron]

Thanks, that helps but I still don't get some of the terms you and the wiki use here. The wiki glossary doesn't have Roman Cancel, and I keep seeing that. Force Roman Cancel? Overdrive?

So the purpose of building up the meter is to enable the super moves?

[Silmerion]

Your homework for today is to read the Guilty Gear XX Accent Core glossary.

[RifleAvenger]

GG Terms:

Roman Cancel) Spends half a full bar, immediately cancels any move. Can be used to continue a combo/pressure or make an unsafe move safe. Can only be used if the move hits the foe, but it doesn't matter if they blocked the hit or not. You cannot roman cancel projectile moves.

Force Roman Cancel) Roman canceling certain moves on specific frames. Frames vary from move to move. Window is usually 2-4 frames wide, depends on the move. Reduces the cost to 1/4th of a full bar, and cancels that move.

Notably, it can be done even if the move whiffs, and there are projectiles that can be force roman canceled. In addition to the above uses for roman canceling, FRC's can be used for all sorts of maneuvers, some even provide different benefits depending on the exact frame canceled upon (for example, some lead into high low mixups). Being half as expensive helps too.

Force Breaks) EX moves (improved versions or normal specials). Cost 1/4th a full bar.

Overdrive) Super Moves. As Simerion said, these usually aren't worth it. Cost half a full bar.

Dead Angle) Done when blocking. Character does an invulnerable move that knocks the foe away. Cost half a full bar. Gets someone off of you without using burst.

Flawless Defense) Prevents chip and pushes the foe away. Costs more tension the longer you do it. Done by holding down two buttons while blocking.

Blaze Blue Terms:

Distortion Drives) Super moves. Unlike Guilty, many of these are quite useful, though not all of them are. 1/2 Bar

Astral Heat) Flashy finishing moves that can only be preformed on a match point for the user, when the foe has 35% health remaining or less. Cost a full bar and a burst.

Rapid Cancel) Same as Roman Cancel in Guilty. 1/2 Bar

Counter Assualt) Same as Dead Angle in Guilty. 1/2 Bar.

Crush Trigger) Only in the upcoming Blaze Blue game: Chronophantasma. Costs 1/4 of a bar, and is an unblockable move (unless the defender barrier blocks) that also works as a combo extender.

Character Specific) Jin has EX moves that cost 1/4 of a bar, and Hakuman's meter works differently than any other character.

Meter is for far more than powering up super moves or extending combos. It can be used to make moves safe via RC'ing, on defense (Dead Angle/Counter Assualt), or opening up new movement options (some FRC's). The list of uses for this or that FRC in guilty is too expansive for me to list.

Edited July 20, 2013 by RifleAvenger

[Tronotron]

Thanks folks, things are a little clearer now. I stil don't get why so much talk is focused on cancelling. Seems like something I take for granted. (Also a confusing terminology, coming from an RPG background I assumed it had something to do with cancelling enemy moves.)

Also, I need to say here that the choice to go with numpad notation is really unfortunate., it is a major turn-off for beginners who don't even have a numpad to refer to.... Being faced with lists of things like 562jc is a fast way to make me look for another hobby.

← → ↑ ➘ ↓↵

I'm missing some diagonals but surely all the arrows can be done with ASCII codes?

Reading the wiki is somewhat futile as the jargon is not linked to its explanation, and it is everywhere. e.g :

Attacking Option Selects

Attacking option selects are basically an attack sequence that can cover an opponent's multiple options while reducing the number of options to keep in mind. Attacking option selects are usually applied in okizeme as well as in mixup situations.

It doesn't have to be as inaccesible as this .... the jargon is rarely self-explanatory and adding in Japanese words just kills off the appetite.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Tronotron

[Rhiya]

It's quicker, which is why it's used. It takes me a like less time to write 5C 6C than look up the codes for , and it's outright less key presses even if I already know what they are. It's also outright tradition for the anime community. I actually process 5C 6C -better-, and 6C makes me think of a move, whereas forward C makes me stop and think for a second before I get it.

[Tronotron]

Well it is easier for those writing the stuff but the point is to explain to those reading it, and the arrows need no explanation. The numpad notation is an unnecessary complication that will most likely put me off attempting to learn much here.

Seems almost like something deliberately chosen to put most people off and keep the techniques secret, for the small proprortion of people who can take the time to learn the numpad notation. I'm not good with learning unecessarily complicated things. No numpad, I have a laptop and a console. Staring at sequences of numbers has always been extremely awkward to me, it very quickly loses any meaning my brain is trying to attach to it.

Here's to someone somewhere producing a human readable guide to these games.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Tronotron

[Celerity]

Well it is easier for those writing the stuff but the point is to explain to those reading it, and the arrows need no explanation. The numpad notation is an unnecessary complication that will most likely put me off attempting to learn much here.

Seems almost like something deliberately chosen to put most people off and keep the techniques secret, for the small proprortion of people who can take the time to learn the numpad notation. I'm not good with learning unecessarily complicated things. No numpad, I have a laptop and a console. Staring at sequences of numbers has always been extremely awkward to me, it very quickly loses any meaning my brain is trying to attach to it.

Here's to someone somewhere producing a human readable guide to these games.

I come from a long history at SRK where people do what you are describing, using graphics to represent inputs, and numpad notation is straight up easier. It's easier to write, it's easier to read, and it is universal for every motion in every game. You are deluding yourself if you believe it was done to make things more complicated, because it's the exact opposite. If you can understand where North and South are on a map, you can understand numpad notation.

[Tronotron]

Fait enough but I respectfully disagree , when I look at this ↓➘ → P K , I know instantly what it means, without having to learn numbers. arrows and P for Punch and K for Kick must be the most straightforward way to describe the move. Numpad is easier to write but not to read.

[edollarports]

I'm hilariously reminded of that time Fanatiq tried to learn BB

[Tari]

I honestly can't tell if this thread is trolling at this point, but I'm going to assume it's not.

Here's an example of half of a Rachel combo from the current console port of BlazBlue:

Numpad notation: 6A CH, dash 5B > jc j.C > 2D > djc j.2C > j.214A, 1D, 5CC > 236C...

Arrow notation: CH, dash > jc > > djc > , , :cbt: > ...

...or another, not very optimal one...

Numpad notation: (carry to corner) 4B > 5B > 5C > 6CD > j.C > dash 5B > 5CC > 214A, 3C (1 hit) > 236A, 3C (1 hit) > 214C, 3C (1 hit) > 214B

Arrow notation: (carry to corner) > > > > > dash > :cbt: > , (1 hit) > , (1 hit) > , (1 hit) >

I suppose you could argue that the second list of inputs is easier to understand if you have no idea what numpad notation is, but for people who do know how to read numpad notation (which, as mentioned, is anyone with a few minutes of free time), the numpad notated list is both quicker and easier to comprehend.

If I had used notations for the dashes (ie: 66 and two arrows), things would've been even more confusing in the arrow list. Charge inputs, double half circles, and other special inputs would be horrifying for me to look at as well.

I was considering writing an explanation of the differences between numpad notation and arrow notation and why each is used for certain games (beyond just precedence), but now I don't feel like it. -cough-

@bibi: did you just take a photo of your keyboard? lol

Edited July 20, 2013 by Tari
lazy

[Silmerion]

Everyone on page 2 except Tari: why are we being rude to the guy? So he doesn't like numpad notation. That's no reason to talk to him like he's stupid. That's no way to build a community. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Tronotron: You may not like it, but I promise you, it'll make your life easier if you take the time to learn it. Also, pretty much all of the useful info on DL is in numpad notation, so it's just something you're going to have to learn if you want to get anything out of the site. :/

Edited July 20, 2013 by Silmerion

[Yazumatto]

My reaction to the numpad notation was "wtf?" as well.

Then I looked at the keyboard I was typing on and understood in 5 seconds. It's honestly not hard to comprehend and it makes everyone's lives easier. Arrow emotes are cool and all but it gets cluttered up really fast as seen above.

[Circuitous]

Things I apparently have to tell mods: don't be dickheads.

Things we apparently have to tell new players: when you pick up a game, you'll be expected to learn the notation its community has established. Numpad notation has only lived on as long as it has because it makes sense and the community wants to use it. There's an article on the wiki explaining it, though you make a good point about linking terms to their definitions when they're use elsewhere. That's something we should probably be doing already.

[Airk]

No numpad, I have a laptop and a console.

Actually, I'll bet you money that you have a numpad printed right on your laptop keyboard. It's a standard feature because the things are freakin' handy. It's probably marked in darker ink though, so you don't mix it up with the "main" purpose of the keys.

Here's to someone somewhere producing a human readable guide to these games.

If it makes you feel better, I was annoyed by the notation at first too. But it doesn't make any sense to claim to be "unable to read it" or something. Live with it for a week and you'll absolutely no longer care.

Otherwise? You might as well try converting the US to Metric. It's not worth it.

[Tronotron]

Things I apparently have to tell mods: don't be dickheads.

Things we apparently have to tell new players: when you pick up a game, you'll be expected to learn the notation its community has established. Numpad notation has only lived on as long as it has because it makes sense and the community wants to use it. There's an article on the wiki explaining it, though you make a good point about linking terms to their definitions when they're use elsewhere. That's something we should probably be doing already.

Thanks all for your help and responses. I suppose if numpad notation has been used for years some people could think that I was trolling, but I wasn't . I realized my post could seem a little assholish, like " here's this newbie come tell everyone that they are wrong!"

I was actually thinking of ascii arrrows like ←↑→ ↓➘, and not emoticons but I'm not sure if all the needed directions are in the ascii set.

To get back to the topic, I now understand the tension meter reasonably well, thanks for the help.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Tronotron

[Tari]

Thanks all for your help and responses. I suppose if numpad notation has been used for years some people could think that I was trolling, but I wasn't . I realized my post could seem a little assholish, like " here's this newbie come tell everyone that they are wrong!"

I was actually thinking of ascii arrrows like ←↑→ ↓➘, and not emoticons but I'm not sure if all the needed directions are in the ascii set.

To get back to the topic, I now understand the tension meter reasonably well, thanks for the help.

ASCII arrows are neat, but they're not very reliable. I don't remember if they're font-dependent, but they are encoding dependent, which makes them pretty much non-viable. They suffer from the same issues as the icon arrows, in that they generate a lot of clutter in these types of combo lists (where many of the moves are command normals). ASCII arrows would actually have more problems in regards to being visually confusing when placed next to a bunch of '>' symbols, as well.

On top of that, people who write combos would have to memorize the ALT-codes for every single arrow, which is probably more time-consuming than just learning numpad notation. I mean, even you aren't sure if there are enough arrows in the ASCII set to begin with, and you're the one drawing them right now. :P

For what it's worth, in most games that use arrow inputs in combos, I believe there are abbreviations (QCF, QCB, etc.) or full-motion icons for those abbreviations to help alleviate the issue of over-arrowing.

Numpad notation pretty neatly sidesteps all of those issues and is much easier to write and (at least for us) read.

Anyway, glad you've got the tension bar/meter gauge figured out.

[Tronotron]

Thanks Tari, that explains the reason for numpad notation to me pretty well. I have a block against learning stuff when I can't undesrtand the reason for it. SRK wiki uses actual png images for the stick and buttons , and that's the easiest on the eyes .

[Kikuichimonji]

You actually gain meter really fast in Guilty Gear, but only if you aren't using meter. There is a "Tension Gain penalty" in Guilty Gear so that once you spend meter, you can't immediately gain more meter. This is to stop abusive stuff like Roman Cancelling a move, doing a blockstring, and then having the meter to Roman Cancel again. This is essential to understand for managing meter in Guilty Gear. Lots of the time, your first hit will just lead into a simple meterless knockdown or setup. This is so that you can gain enough meter to make the next hit really juicy.