Are CPU grapplers ridiculously cheap, or do I need work?

[Mugen Tux]

CPU Pot and Tager get all my hate.

I know the CPU is reading my inputs, but no matter what I try they always manage to destroy me.

Whenever I try to zone/poke, I get block>Sledge/block>Hammerfall.

Whenever I try to get in to keep pressure on them, block>Command Grab

Is there any kind of help to this, or is the CPU just 'cheating'?

Should I just stop fighting the CPU and get the console versions?

[Solless]

I'm not sure when it started, but CPUs nowadays have something akin to ESP. They are able to read the inputs of your controller and react at an unnatural speed. Example, and this happened to me, a Chun-li in Marvel would actually do a counter super at me when I pressed light attack as Dante. Any normal person probably would not have been able to react to that in such a way unless I was being obvious (which I wasn't), and it even did it again when I would try to poke at her raw with medium attacks from the maximum distance.

Another example is to go into score attack mode and try to land a Hell's fang against Tager even at face to face range. Computer will react with a backdash, then Tager buster.

[LeDom]

In general, CPUs in fighters always have easy imput (unlike players who, even when skilled, can have their imputs misread) so they always get the very move they wanted to perform. In addition, they directly read YOUR imputs so if you mess up, they'll know before you do. To compensate, they can't learn new combos and can easily fall for things that human players could cleverly predict after being used to your playstyle. Plus, they're not as good as blocking, as they mostly focus on attack.

In other words, if you play against an AI, just be careful. Learn which of your moves are safe on block or wait until you see an opening.

[Bibiquadium]

To beat tager you DP him 35x, when you dash towards most other cpus, just dash in 2A 2A quick combo because they will ALWAYS back dash unless they have 50 heat then whiff input DP or w/e.

[Teutonicknight]

Use the gimmickiest/cheapest strategy you can, and keep repeating it. The computers basically cheat with their command line advantage, and do stuff that would be so hard to do normally so easily and precise.

When I use Makoto against a hell Tager, he's an idiot against certain things like Lightning Arrow and Break Shot. Also, when he has a Spark Bolt ready, just throw out a jab from far away, and he will let it out and you will be able to block it, making him totally waste it. xD

[Bibiquadium]

Why would you bother, just DP. And Unlimited Hazama at Hell? 214A~D, corner combo, 214A~D combo into 6C Orb Reset to death.

[Teutonicknight]

Orb resets work wonders against the cpu's, but, it really depends on what character he is using. If it's a DPless character, omg... The fight just becomes that much more annoying.

[Wild Candy]

This is why if I need a better challenge then the Very Hard Difficulty offers, I just find random matches online. CPU's just get cheap and fight dirty on the hell difficulty.

[Teutonicknight]

Ever seen the CPU's on Marvel? Now they fight dirty, BB's computers are tame compared to them. Damn near unbeatable if you don't abuse zoning strategies, lmao...

[Ctrlaltwtf]

What makes grappler CPUs dumb is because CPUs never actually "input" anything like humans do. They simply use moves from their command list so they have no restrictions that a human would have such as reaction time/input time.

Which is why Tager can react to a Hell's Fang with 720 from neutral.

Most CPUs can be killed easily enough with a loop once you find one to abuse though. For instance you can Perfect Haku-men all day by purple throwing him in midair, then mashing A during the throw break. Haku-men will always use jD which won't catch your jA and he'll fall to the ground unable to block > rinse > repeat.

[mAc Chaos]

Like everybody said, CPUs just do the counter to your move since they know what you can do and can do their moves instantly. However, they also follow a scripted pattern, so the way to beat them is find the flaw in that pattern and just abuse it over and over. That is why CPUs don't make good training for playing other people.

[Teutonicknight]

Speak of which, is it basically the same thing as stylish mode, but with the character's whole moveset?

It sure seems like it, lol, because if that's the case, then it is technically cheating. But their braindeaded-ness is their main flaw. :P

[TD]

the moment you press a button, if the cpu is in neutral yhere is a chance it will, literally, do the -direct- counter to your attack/movement instantly, barring high-invulnerability move which of course cannot be bested. with that being said, 2a fullscreen will provoke an offensive reaction (in tager's case, sledge) in which case you can punish the lenghty startup/recovery, depending on who you play. 3x ninja'd

[Teutonicknight]

2a fullscreen will provoke an offensive reaction

*does a puny jab*

Tager: "KIIIIIIIILL!!!"

lol, computer logic

[Kikuichimonji]

CPU Pot and Tager get all my hate.

I know the CPU is reading my inputs, but no matter what I try they always manage to destroy me.

Whenever I try to zone/poke, I get block>Sledge/block>Hammerfall.

Whenever I try to get in to keep pressure on them, block>Command Grab

Is there any kind of help to this, or is the CPU just 'cheating'?

Should I just stop fighting the CPU and get the console versions?

Fighting the CPU is just useless man. Training mode is a better use of your time. CPUs have been doing this since Street Fighter 2. Walk forward flash kick with Guile, too.

I'm not sure when it started, but CPUs nowadays have something akin to ESP. They are able to read the inputs of your controller and react at an unnatural speed. Example, and this happened to me, a Chun-li in Marvel would actually do a counter super at me when I pressed light attack as Dante. Any normal person probably would not have been able to react to that in such a way unless I was being obvious (which I wasn't), and it even did it again when I would try to poke at her raw with medium attacks from the maximum distance.

Wait, you didn't bold cancel like a boss? What a loser!

[Tronotron]

Playing against the CPU on Very Hard difficulty and above can be bad for the nerves! I too have been having problems with Tager and the guy with the folding chair in P4A who seems to be able to grab from a distance. Pretty fukken cheap.

[TheRealBobMan]

CPUs are really only good to learn what moves look like, since you're probably not going to learn how to recognize every move in the game by training with 1-2 characters in training mode, and practicing your confirms when you don't have time to think about what combo you're doing.

Yeah, getting reversal Dusted by Faust is annoying, but at least you can learn to recognize the dust so you can block it high. Or slashback moves that are slow.

If you make a conscious effort not to fall into stupid patterns that work on CPUs but not humans, you can still get something out of playing against them.

Learn to bait hammerfall by attacking from a safer distance, using fast pokes so you can block, or gatlings that happen quickly enough to go through it. Or confirm into a super to blast through it. Just be aware of hammerfall break > throw. If you're getting thrown out of pressure, don't leave gaps at that range. There will be a time and a place where you can get away with it during a match with a person, just as there will eventually be a scrub that always mashes reversal Pot Buster while blocking just to see if you **** up. Don't lose to that guy. Time your jump-in better, or don't commit to whatever unsafe ender you're doing, or don't drop your block string. Really, it helps to have that stupid perfect reaction crap keeping you honest once in a while.

Just make sure not to fall into a pattern when you start playing with real people. They wont make the same mistakes the CPU makes, so if you rely on abusing bad AI you wont beat actual people.

On the subject of stupid punishes for CPU controller reading, once I did 6K+H with Chipp on Pot. He read the throw attempt and did Pot Buster to beat it, which was beaten by airborne 6K OS.

[Tronotron]

Yeah , I found that I can destroy some CPU characters by spamming certain moves but I avoid doing it so as to learn, and I agree there's something to be said for practicing against opponents with perfect reaction times. But, I threw my gamepad to the floor with Tager once...

[Dazardz]

Sorry, I know what you mean so I did a super long post.

So have you played Marvel? Cheap as ever, they can easily counter your teleports on Very Hard difficulty. Even the fastest teleports in the game.

Have you ever played Persona 4 Arena? Kanji's grab is the most annoying thing in the game. Perioid. Anyway.

I played CS2 for a year on PSP until I moved onto Extend on Xbox for high level play.

CPU's in most fighting games will counter your moves and etc. So, I'll avoid what's already been said.

Tager on Hell Mode:

Backdash, Super.

Ragna on Hell Mode:

DP to EVERYTHING.

Mu-12 on Hell Mode:

Steins Gunner, Another One, Jump in Mid-air and place more Steins Gunners.

TAGER:

So to beat Tager, you'll have to try someone like Lambda-11. If you really need to use a rushdown character like Ragna, your going to have to use stuff like Dead Spike. If he can Sledge through it, your dead and you may have to learn to hit with projectiles a little out of the hitbox where his Sledge can catch you. Have you ever tried running to tager and then backdashing? If you use someone like Lambda-11, don't worry. Just go in the air and spam j.2d(The swords that go downwards while your in mid-air.). He'll spam sledge and catch you. HERE'S THE REAL PART. Have you ever done with Lambda, 6DD(The swords that attack people in the air forwards.) > Jump and Backdash > j.2DD? It can be hard to do, but you can catch Tager after he's done Sledge. And if you do use Lambda, always use 6DD because it can almost always hit him, and it's jump cancellable? Jump cancelled? You can jump cancel it. The CPU sucks at blocking, so for example,

3C (that move that knocks the opponent down) into Sickle Storm. The CPU doesn't block, and if he does, keep on hitting with a bunch of lows and he'll lose to the mixup. If you can hit Tager for long enough to be able to use sickle storm again, you win.

Oh yeah, he'll always use Gadget Finger when your down, then use it again like he's trolling you. So if you are caught by Gadget finger, just do a crouching light punch, even mash it because it beats the second gadget finger. But, in certain games he'll throw after one gadget thinger instead. In that case, jump and block, that's all.

WATCH OUT FOR THE SPARK BOLT! WATCH THE METER! Your better of pressing light punch and then blocking.

RAGNA:

Nobody can beat him, he's way too cheap. It's DP for everything. Only zoners stand a chance, and Ragna can still get in easily.

Have you ever tried doing those fast light punches when your close to Ragna on hell difficulty, it's an auto-DP. He even does a DP in the middle of blockstrings. I'm in a hurry, so I'll edit this section later if I can find more advice. Gonna get my PSP back out lol.

Mu-12:

When she uses her steins, if she's on the ground, she will go in the air to place more. Lambda can counter that EVERY TIME with 6DD, because the CPU can't change it's style of play. If you play a character like Ragna, only a DP will work, because she will use Divine Wrath of The Heavens when you run in with an attack that's not invulnerable. I'll also edit this later too.

I'm gonna play some CS2 on PSP now to see what I can find out about more characters or just general tactics. But you get in now right?

Edited August 25, 2013 by Dazardz

[Star-Demon]

Maniac Potemkin is my training partner.

Nothing like a psychic CPU with frame perfect instant inputs.

You just have to understand the rules of the CPU's logic to be cheap or just know your moves better than they know theirs.

[Monarch]

In my opinion, the super human A.I. crap needs to stop. Prime example, I'm in abyss mode fighting unlimited Mu 12 as Ragna, floor lvl 999. So I go for a Hell Fang, right? She IMMEDIATELY places me inside her secret distortion. *Traps me in a box, places Stein Gunners as they brutally rape me* Those kind if reactions are infuriating as hell. But, then again, it's BB, What're you gonna do?

Edited November 8, 2013 by Frost Monarch

[Kikuichimonji]

In my opinion, the super human A.I. crap needs to stop. Prime example, I'm in abyss mode fighting unlimited Mu 12 as Ragna, floor lvl 999. So I go for a Hell Fang, right? She IMMEDIATELY places me inside her secret distortion. *Traps me in a box, places Stein Gunners as they brutally rape me* Those kind if reactions are infuriating as hell. But, then again, it's BB, What're you gonna do?

There's no way to fix it without seriously re-evaluating the way CPU's play. People play based on past information (reaction time), CPUs play on current information. On the extreme end, a CPU that only uppercuts when you hit a button is unbeatable. 250 frames, 25 frames, 5 frames, doesn't matter to a CPU. And trying to simulate "guessing" the way a player does is extremely complicated. The best alternative is just to have the CPU randomly decide between defending correctly or not, or to make it more offensive and commitment-based.

[Narroo]

There's no way to fix it without seriously re-evaluating the way CPU's play. People play based on past information (reaction time), CPUs play on current information. On the extreme end, a CPU that only uppercuts when you hit a button is unbeatable. 250 frames, 25 frames, 5 frames, doesn't matter to a CPU. And trying to simulate "guessing" the way a player does is extremely complicated. The best alternative is just to have the CPU randomly decide between defending correctly or not, or to make it more offensive and commitment-based.

Right, so don't expect any good AI opponents any time soon. That would a project for a company in of itself.

[TeeJay]

I enjoy playing GG on Maniac a lot more than i do BB on Hell. I can tolerate losing against Potemkin with my Robo-Ky or the Robo-Ky vs. jin matchup. GG opponents tend to randomly go into ultra defensive mode. i haven't figured that out but I feel like I can play around more with my strings and sometimes, do some extended pressure things.