XDest Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Damage numbers don't really matter - it's EASY for them to tune how much damage a character's combos do. It's Tao's neutral game that is hard to manipulate. Giving her recovery on her drives would drag her down fast and make a huge difference. And it might break the character (in a bad way) too if done too harshly, is what I was implying. It's not an easy character to balance by any means.
mAc Chaos Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Wait so, how would CT Tao compare to EX Tao? Because I was always under the impression she kept getting better. I think she didn't get as good combos off her hit confirms in CT?
Yazumatto Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Is it Dogura by any chance? Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk Checking the video thread confirms that it is indeed Dogura. Huh. Interesting.
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, I don't know of any other Azraels who are that strong. He's a great player. Didn't know he was #1 though, so that's cool. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Salt totally keeps people playing the game, right? No, but I think it's mad hilarious. Plus it's not like Tsubaki players are keeping the community afloat anyway, nobody plays BB regardless. At this point, it's less the predictably depressing changes and more the "Well, I don't think you deserve anything, hurr, you're obviously doing it wrong if you haven't found a less 'dumb' combo, there must be something wrong with your character's "design"" nonsense from the "Community" that produces the frustration. I've been frustrated with the way my main character has been handled pretty much since CS2, regardless of tier rankings. The current version of Ragna is not bad at all, yet every Ragna player on Dloop has been complaining about him forever. I really, really wish ASW had taken the opportunity to make him more interesting to play with this update, but all signs point to fairly insignificant changes. Sometimes, your favorite character just sucks. This is why I gave up Soul Calibur, I felt like they couldn't get my character right. You can whine about it as much as you like, but honestly, ASW doesn't give a crap about how much people on this board complain.
Yazumatto Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, I don't know of any other Azraels who are that strong. He's a great player. Didn't know he was #1 though, so that's cool. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk TBH, I think he's farming players at his local arcade. Arcade attendance has dropped considerably since the console version dropped. I do think that he's really good though.
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 That's definitely a possibility. Kaqn is an 18th Dan (last I checked) but his arcade (Game Chariot) isn't very strong apparently. Not sure if that's relevant but that's what it makes me think of... I'll still say I really like dogura. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
Airk Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 No, but I think it's mad hilarious. Plus it's not like Tsubaki players are keeping the community afloat anyway, nobody plays BB regardless. This community has no people in it, so it's totally okay to shed members of a small subset? That's the opposite of how it should work. :P I've been frustrated with the way my main character has been handled pretty much since CS2, regardless of tier rankings. The current version of Ragna is not bad at all, yet every Ragna player on Dloop has been complaining about him forever. I really, really wish ASW had taken the opportunity to make him more interesting to play with this update, but all signs point to fairly insignificant changes. I guess it's hard to sympathize with "My character is perfectly fine, but not as much fun as I'd like" when playing a character who isn't fine. Sometimes, your favorite character just sucks. This is why I gave up Soul Calibur, I felt like they couldn't get my character right. You can whine about it as much as you like, but honestly, ASW doesn't give a crap about how much people on this board complain. I know that, but it's not like Japan doesn't complain about Tsubaki. I swear ASW is just doing this **** at random or something. Edit: GDI, stupid scratchpad.
XDest Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Wait so, how would CT Tao compare to EX Tao? Because I was always under the impression she kept getting better. I think she didn't get as good combos off her hit confirms in CT? No... CSEX was actually the first BB where Taokaka actually had to confirm standing combos. CP continued this trend. CT had the easiest confirms ever, almost all for 4k. CT also had 6C that could wall bounce in combos, not just on CH. It was a silly game.
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 This was just a patch mainly to fix the console characters after all, I'm kinda surprised some people expect huge changes for characters ASW are probably happy with. That being said, I think it would be interesting to actually sit down with the ASW dev team to hear them reason out their character design and understand what direction they're trying to take with certain characters, what information they use to determine iv something needs to be changed. Most people around here seem to think that they just use alcohol and a dart board for that kind of decision making though. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
Airk Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 That being said, I think it would be interesting to actually sit down with the ASW dev team to hear them reason out their character design and understand what direction they're trying to take with certain characters, what information they use to determine iv something needs to be changed. I agree. Most people around here seem to think that they just use alcohol and a dart board for that kind of decision making though. This is actually us giving them the benefit of the doubt after observing changes for 4 iterations. The alternative is "casual ignorance and lack of basic understanding of design." :P
Dark Ranger88 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Sometimes, your favorite character just sucks. This is why I gave up Soul Calibur, I felt like they couldn't get my character right. You can whine about it as much as you like, but honestly, ASW doesn't give a crap about how much people on this board complain. Off topic I know, but...Someone should make a fighting game where you create your own character. Just have a giant movepool of normals, specials, and supers that you can pick from. Movement options (dashes, jumps, backsteps), health, etc. are all customizable too. Then implement a points system where good moves and attributes cost more than average or sucky ones (also restrictions on certain builds, e.g. "You can't have a super like Legacy Edge AND an unblockable move on the same character"). If a particular tool is deemed OP then it can be patched to cost more or have its attributes tweaked. If you don't like the character you made then you can just tweak them. I would make so many waifus (cosmetic customization options are a must. Think of how much money you could make by releasing huge packs of cosmetic items as DLC.)
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, I got that lol I'm not certain I understand that change to air starters, since, as stated, it affects some characters more that others. I never really thought of BB as a very ground heavy game, or rather, one that discouraged aerial stuff too much. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 That really is pretty off topic. If anything I suppose that would teach people about how difficult balanced character design is. Characters can't have their movesets designed in a vacuum (or they shouldn't). The capabilities of the rest of the cast should be a very real consideration when designing a characters options. So while being able to mix and match fighting game parts sounds lime good fun to me, I think it would also be rather messy at best. Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 here's another dogura tweet Looks like they'll be strong after the changes Rachel Azrael Carl Terumi Feels like they'll be strong Taokaka Litchi Izayoi What changed? Noel Nu "The person who did this, come out" likely to be said about Makoto
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I guess it's hard to sympathize with "My character is perfectly fine, but not as much fun as I'd like" when playing a character who isn't fine. A lot of it depends on your definition of 'fine'. Ask the average Ragna player in the Ragna board and they'll tell you he NEEDS to be buffed. But with the huge number of Ragna players using him, combined with his general 'decent'-ness in Japan (if Xie's account is to be believed), it's pretty tough to get anybody to pay attention. I know that, but it's not like Japan doesn't complain about Tsubaki. I swear ASW is just doing this **** at random or something. There could be multiple factors at hand. Maybe the nature of Japan's complaining isn't her tier ranking, but just the way she works as a character (wonky normals, inconsistent hitconfirms and BnBs that are character specific). I mean, even with all her supposed terrible-ness, Dogura puts her only slightly below the middle in terms of character strength in his listing, and there are at least nine other characters who are worse than her on that list. She's certainly not as bad as Bullet or Izayoi. The Tsubaki players might not like the stupid aspects of her gameplay, but if changing that would go outside of the way ASW wants the character to play, it's not gonna change. Or maybe they feel like fixing those complaints wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be, or maybe it would make her "too strong" in their eyes. Maybe, in spite of how much Tsubaki players like her, she is not a well-liked character overall, which would lower the incentive for ASW to make her better. Dogura's placement is also telling, because it may be saying that in spite of everything said here, maybe, just maybe, she's not as bad as Tsubaki players are making her out to be. This is why I draw the Ragna parallel, because man, I see tons of people complain about Ragna. It's rare to see anyone say anything good about him here, which is why Xie's tier list surprised me. After playing him for a while, I see both sides of the coin, because the truth is that while Ragna players bitch about him all the time, he is not a bad character. In some ways, he's better than EX, though EX version overall is still stronger. He has things in CP he hasn't had before. His average damage for CP is really good. His corner carry is nuts. OD gives him a meterless way to do huge damage off of his main hitconfirm at its max range on ground hit, something he has never had in any other game. None of this changes the fact that he got nerfed pretty hard from previous iterations, but he is working as the developers intended and he's not overtly weak. I personally think most Ragna players who continue to bitch about him are just at odds with his design and the way he is supposed to be played (this is part of why I'm starting to look at other characters). So my advice is, if you don't like the direction Tsubaki's going in, and you still really like Blazblue, make a serious consideration to change characters. Because bitching about her and calling for nerfs to stronger characters in order to bring them in line with her suckiness isn't going to change anything, as long as ASW thinks she is fine.
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I get the rest of it, but what is Dogura trying to say about Noel and Nu? "They have changes but I'm not sure what it does for them?" Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, something like that. Or more like "they got changes, but it doesn't do jack for them". The note on Makoto is hilarious. I blame Goro. Low tier heroes, tell your idol players to stop being so damn good, then maybe your character will get buffed.
STenSatsu Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Probably just means they are basically the same.
Appledash- Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Ah, I got it now. Reading it again it's really clear :P Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
Airk Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 A lot of it depends on your definition of 'fine'. Ask the average Ragna player in the Ragna board and they'll tell you he NEEDS to be buffed. But with the huge number of Ragna players using him, combined with his general 'decent'-ness in Japan (if Xie's account is to be believed), it's pretty tough to get anybody to pay attention. I saw a bunch of whining about him when CP first came out, but it seemed like the sensible people stopped once some decent combo paths were figured out. I don't really see what the problem with Ragna is, honestly. Is he great? No. But I think he's near the level where the game should be balanced towards (rather than, say, the level Jin is at). There could be multiple factors at hand. Maybe the nature of Japan's complaining isn't her tier ranking, but just the way she works as a character (wonky normals, inconsistent hitconfirms and BnBs that are character specific). Well, lemme tell you, if they were to fix that stuff, I'd be super pleased! :P Maybe, in spite of how much Tsubaki players like her, she is not a well-liked character overall, which would lower the incentive for ASW to make her better. This is BACKWARDS, IMHO. If a character isn't popular, you BUFF them. That's how you get more people to play them. So my advice is, if you don't like the direction Tsubaki's going in, and you still really like Blazblue, make a serious consideration to change characters. Because bitching about her and calling for nerfs to stronger characters in order to bring them in line with her suckiness isn't going to change anything, as long as ASW thinks she is fine. The problem is that she's not going in a "Direction"; Seriously. They made up a bunch of completely new random **** for her for CP. "Here! Have a ground projectile! and a command grab! And this weird super that provides 'oki' but leads to no damage. But we're going to nerf all the stuff that was previously your signature" - to me, it's clear that they have NO IDEA what they want the character to do, which is pathetic and absurd, especially when they keep delivering nerfs in the name of what's 'appropriate to her design' or something. There's no such thing. And again - it would be EASY to change a few things (mostly, the badness of her normals) that would improve her without changing a damn thing about her 'design'. "design" is a cop out excuse, especially when you are flailing around as much as ASW is here. P.S. I haven't called for nerfs to anyone. Except Hakumen and he got them. :P I just hate on your 'justifications' for Azrael. I don't actually want him nerfed, I just hate your reasoning.
Mumm-Ra Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Just dropping in to say that I'm happy with that one Arakune buff. Also Taokaka needs more nerfs. Also nerf scissors and buff paper, please.
Yazumatto Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 here's another dogura tweet Looks like they'll be strong after the changes Rachel Azrael Carl Terumi Feels like they'll be strong Taokaka Litchi Izayoi What changed? Noel Nu "The person who did this, come out" likely to be said about Makoto What's Dogura's twitter handle?
mAc Chaos Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I was kind of hoping they'd just completely redesign Hakumen, but oh well. They just decided to trim some branches.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I saw a bunch of whining about him when CP first came out, but it seemed like the sensible people stopped once some decent combo paths were figured out. I don't really see what the problem with Ragna is, honestly. Is he great? No. But I think he's near the level where the game should be balanced towards (rather than, say, the level Jin is at). I disagree with this completely. If anything, they should balance the game more towards Jin's level. If you balanced it around Ragna, the game would be stagnant and boring. This is what I was talking about earlier. People who like shitty characters should not be in charge of determining how good everyone else should be. The game should not be balanced around a certain "power level". You should give everyone the strongest stuff you can give them, while maintaining character variety, and without making anything so overpowered that it cannot be reasonably dealt with in some way. Unfortunately, BB is not balanced this way, instead being focused around making people play the game a certain way (but then inexplicably putting in characters that can get around that). Well, lemme tell you, if they were to fix that stuff, I'd be super pleased! :P Which is probably why they aren't going to do it! :P This is BACKWARDS, IMHO. If a character isn't popular, you BUFF them. That's how you get more people to play them. If a character is unpopular because of their overall design and playstyle, you don't buff them, because then they will become more prevalent. Not only will the character's fans do better, players who are more concerned with just winning will play that character, and people who don't like that character will be pissed and stop playing. If those people are the majority, your game dies. It would be better to change the character's design instead. It would be like if Arakune was just as annoying in CT, but lower tier, then they buffed him up to his CT tier strength by CP. Nobody would play the game. The problem is that she's not going in a "Direction"; Seriously. They made up a bunch of completely new random **** for her for CP. "Here! Have a ground projectile! and a command grab! And this weird super that provides 'oki' but leads to no damage. But we're going to nerf all the stuff that was previously your signature" - to me, it's clear that they have NO IDEA what they want the character to do, which is pathetic and absurd, especially when they keep delivering nerfs in the name of what's 'appropriate to her design' or something. There's no such thing. And again - it would be EASY to change a few things (mostly, the badness of her normals) that would improve her without changing a damn thing about her 'design'. "design" is a cop out excuse, especially when you are flailing around as much as ASW is here. I never said I agreed with ASW's ideas. I have simply attempted to understand the logic behind the changes, because it makes me slightly less angry, and it allows me to enjoy the game more, which is more important to me. I have hated the way ASW decided to balance BB since day 1, and I don't like what I perceive to be their core concept for the game. But understanding why they do what they do helps. In spite of the funny comments people are making here, I sincerely doubt that ASW developers are completely dense about the game. They just don't really care so much about balance, and would rather make the characters play the way they think they should. They won't fix Tsubaki because hey, they probably think her funky normals and having crappy hitconfirms is part of her "charm". She's certainly not the first character who had to use character-specific BnBs for her primary combos; hell, if anything, character-specific BnBs were MORE prevalent in older fighting games. Older players just sucked it up and dealt. This new generation is pretty lame sometimes. In some sense, I would rather Tsubaki be lame and unique, than fixed and generic. Go ahead and fix the minimum amount of the problems you perceive with the character, and then tell me what really distinguishes her from the other shoto-style characters like Ragna and Jin. Slightly different combos? A charge system that arguably doesn't get as much use as you'd expect? Double chained normals? P.S. I haven't called for nerfs to anyone. Except Hakumen and he got them. :P I just hate on your 'justifications' for Azrael. I don't actually want him nerfed, I just hate your reasoning. And I think your reasoning stinks too. This is why people disagree on things, doy. "I hate your reasoning for explaining why Azrael wasn't nerfed, even though I didn't want him nerfed in the first place!" Like I said, stop projecting your dissatisfaction with your character onto the rest of the game. If you really didn't care about Azrael's buffs, you wouldn't have said anything. But because the development team's design philosophy doesn't happen to extend its goodwill towards your character, you had to argue. As I said earlier, I hate Ragna's design decisions. But they're in line with how the devs want the game to play, so why fight it? That's why I'd rather just pick a different character. Whining about character balance seems like such a waste of time at the end of the day, it doesn't change anything and there will always be strong and weak characters. If the character you like is too weak for your tastes, either pick a new character or play a different game. Whether or not you like my reasoning, the fact that Azrael received no nerfs and a couple of minor buffs that don't really change the way he plays makes perfect sense. The way Tsubaki is treated may not make sense to you, but that doesn't suddenly invalidate my points on Azrael. Sometimes developers make mistakes. Sometimes, they really can't decide what to do with a character. Friggin' look at Blanka in Street Fighter! To this day, he's still a weird, gimmicky character with limited success at the high level of play. And Street Fighter has been around forever! Yet they still have issues with making him a consistent character (other than being consistently lame). Such is game design.
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