[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Lucalibur]

Are you sure? 2A was my go-to move after j.C (I never got around to testing if anyone could mash out of 2B), and it didn't work. And from that description, the 5B I followed up with should also have caught him, but I'm pretty sure I got 5A'd most of the time until I found out you could beat it with j.D or airdash j.C.

Clearly you were not mashing hard enough.

[NecroTheReaper]

Either way, cant we just say he's sitting comfortably in A tier status still? Lol.

[redsilversnake]

Clearly you were not mashing hard enough.

Eh. Not like it matters now, since I actually decided earlier to drop any points against his dash (since, really, I just forgot the options against it), I just didn't think to bring it up in my reply to you. My apologies.

[Angel-tastic]

Aside from changing the hitstun on his air C normals when hitting grounded people? It could mean his j.2c will not safely combo when being too high (iirc wasn't this the case for his CSE counterpart?)

Yeah, I'm also wondering about the change to the ground hitstun of his j.C normals. I don't use Jin regularly, but I know he has combos that go something like e.g. 6B -> 5C -> 2C -> 6C -> 2D -> j.2C -> j.C -> Dash~5B -> 5C -> 3C -> Musou Senshouzan. It doesn't say how much the hitstun is reduced, but I do wonder if things like that will still work after the update.

[Lucalibur]

That route very likely will still work, but the J.C\J.2C FC loops probably won't.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If that's the only possibility you can see, you're very narrow-minded. Calling for a character to get certain nerfs in no way equates to desiring a homogenous cast.

You might not see it that way, but when I'm trying to consider your logic for why his stuff should be nerfed, that's the only solution that I can come up with. Nothing that he has is overpowered when taken in the context of the whole character and the game itself. If you take his strengths and look at them in a vacuum, then yes, they seem too good, but you could do that with almost any character in the freakin' game, and the only type of person who would do that is someone who doesn't understand that when you want variety in a game when it comes to characters, you are going to end up with characters that have really good stuff, usually. The only way you can have everyone be truly fair is to have everyone play in a similar fashion, which is kinda boring. If you just wanna nerf something because you personally think it's too good, often you end up making the character too weak in response.

Is Azrael decidedly overpowered? (Answer: No)

Does anything he have stand out as being entirely too good and not necessary for the character to have? (Answer: Perhaps, but nothing you've mentioned falls into this category)

Does Azrael consistently dominate in competitive settings, like tournaments? (Answer: A resounding NO)

So why the hell would you want to nerf him? Make the weaker characters better and bring them up to his level. That would make for a far more interesting outcome.

People that can't deal with characters that have anything even remotely different from the run of the mill universal options!

This statement pretty much falls in line with the train of thought I'm seeing here. Please don't use weak characters as the baseline for what the game should be.

Rishtopher: I think if you enjoy playing a character, even if they are weak, then you should continue to play that character, while hoping and asking for them to get toned up in the next version. My statement is more towards those who are frustrated with their character and thus seem to think it's okay to just nerf all the strong characters down to the level of the weak ones. While this is one way to balance a game, it is a lame one, and there's no reason for it to happen, especially coming from the company that made the GG series.

[Airk]

His moves are supposed to be safe on block, that's the point, his offense is good because he has a hard time getting in. d Ditto for 5D being fast, he gets no reward for without a weakpoint anyway and the reward he gets for it when he does have a weakpoint is not much unless he either has meter or corner. His dash is too good? Seriously? And for his specials having guard point for no reason, you have Valiant and Hornet which are unsafe on block and then you have Sentinel, which is just, well, do you really see people abusing Sentinel?

This is all a load of crap. You know who else has a hard time getting in and doesn't get any special toys to compensate? Tsubaki. who got like, nerfs in this patch. Rock on with that 26 frame overhead. Oh. And Makoto.

I don't mind Azrael being good, but it's garbage to try to JUSTIFY it like this.

I just wish they'd f-ing balance everyone in this game to the same standard. There is no way that Tsubaki has comparable tools to Azrael right now, but they figure "Oh, hey, we don't like that for OD, 50 meter and 1 charge she can do good damage, nerf that stuff." While Azrael who has to "Work" to get in (How does that work when you can just fly in with Gustav from half screen and be +1 or BETTER (Hi, for you 'oh, oh, if you IB it's a BIIIIG -2!' folks, you're wrong - it's only +1 at point blank range - any further away and you are MORE PLUS.) This is like, the same stuff they nerfed on Tsubaki when people thought her CS2 shield rush was too useful. But no, he gets it, because he has a 'hard time getting in'. :P Because a teleport dash is in no way as good as other people's. Right.

So yeah, if I'm bitter at Azrael getting BUFFS for no reason, it's because they keep treating my character, who has a fundamentally similar gameplan (Short range normals, need to get in, mix up, do damage) like crap.

Also, where are these so-called Jin nerfs? Not seeing anything in his notes that looks remotely nerf like.

[redsilversnake]

[snip]

Again, you're just putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have any above-average tools or even that I expect the game to be completely and totally fair (which, for some reason, is always the assumption people seem to make about the opinions of someone who even suggests that a high tier character get nerfed), but that some of his stuff is better than it should be. I'm willing to retract some of the things I said, but the idea that Azrael shouldn't get any nerfs is still a foolish one. Especially when replying under the apparent assumption that who you're talking to thinks there should only be nerfs.

This statement pretty much falls in line with the train of thought I'm seeing here. Please don't use weak characters as the baseline for what the game should be.

Did you miss the part where I only used to play a weak character? And then proceed to not specify which one I currently play?

Rishtopher: I think if you enjoy playing a character, even if they are weak, then you should continue to play that character, while hoping and asking for them to get toned up in the next version. My statement is more towards those who are frustrated with their character and thus seem to think it's okay to just nerf all the strong characters down to the level of the weak ones. While this is one way to balance a game, it is a lame one, and there's no reason for it to happen, especially coming from the company that made the GG series.

Except, again, that isn't what I said. "This character could do with a few nerfs"≠"This character should be weak." By all means, buff the weak characters. Just don't assume that that'll automatically have them catch up to the better characters if you're also going to buff the latter.

[bakahyl]

Also, where are these so-called Jin nerfs? Not seeing anything in his notes that looks remotely nerf like.

Aside from the j.2c and j.c change.

According to the jin forums his 6a has now more recovery not less. Probably making his already -4 overhead even more minus

[rayplay]

Azrael's buffs won't really change anything. His biggest buff is simply not being nerfed. Everything else was really minor to be honest.

[Maho]

any further away and you are MORE PLUS

Don't just assume things, the dash and the attack part are separate, I just tested by recording at 60fps, Gustav frame advantage doesn't change depending on the distance, only way to get more than +1 is doing it meaty on a wakeup.

[Errol]

Azrael's backdash is likely to be nerfed...

I think this doesn't include that.

N-O's opinion on the 'strong characters'. (from twitter)

Valk - Over

Hakumen -5 to -20 depending on magatama change

Jin - 5 to -20 depending on JC and 6A

Hazama -5 to -20

Litchi - -5 to -10 depending on effect of 4B change

Tao -1 to -3

Rachel - +3

Azrael - +10

Carl - +10-15

[mAc Chaos]

What do those numbers mean?

[natearistata]

The worst part is how many people are bitching about Gustaf, of all things. It is an option to be used sparingly and unpredictably because of how absurdly easy it is to just neutral jump and punish overuse of it, and y'all treating it like it's the best neutral tool in the game.

And seriously, 'this character has it worse so it's just not fair' is such a shit argument. That is an argument for buffs for that character, not for nerfs to another. If the character's options are blatantly too good, that is an argument for nerfs. Azrael is good. Very good, it's why he's A-tier despite having the worst neutral game in the list of S/A tier characters. But he does not possess anything that could even be remotely called OP, and y'all looking like a bunch of crybabies right now.

edit: I'm also with mac, the hell do those numbers mean?

[Errol]

beats me, just look at them relative to each other. how much impact he thinks they have.

[natearistata]

okay but what does over mean that's not a number this is so confusing I'M NOT A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST

[mAc Chaos]

its magic

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Oh look, here comes someone to prove my point for me!

This is all a load of crap. You know who else has a hard time getting in and doesn't get any special toys to compensate? Tsubaki. who got like, nerfs in this patch. Rock on with that 26 frame overhead. Oh. And Makoto.

I'm sorry, did you just mention two characters who have regular dashes? From a design perspective, they should both have a much easier time actually getting inside than Azrael. Staying inside is a whole other story.

I don't mind Azrael being good, but it's garbage to try to JUSTIFY it like this.

How so? My point was that nothing Azrael has is inherently broken, and he works as a character design because of those strengths. The fact that characters like Tsubaki and Makoto FAIL as character designs does nothing to change this. It makes more sense to be mad about them than to be mad about Azrael.

I just wish they'd f-ing balance everyone in this game to the same standard.

So do I! We actually agree on this point. I've said so in multiple posts since the one you're quoting. I'm not sure if you jumped to this point without reading those, but you might want to go back and read them if that's the case.

There is no way that Tsubaki has comparable tools to Azrael right now, but they figure "Oh, hey, we don't like that for OD, 50 meter and 1 charge she can do good damage, nerf that stuff."

Sometimes things get changed because they don't fit in with what the designers think is appropriate for the character. That doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with those changes. Heck, I don't think the changes made to Ragna (my main) are very significant at all, and the BE change is stupid to me. But he's actually a pretty stable character in this version and I think the way he plays fits in line with what the designers intend for him, so as long as the only people bitching about him are the people posting on Dustloop, I don't think anything is gonna change anytime soon, whether I like it or not.

While Azrael who has to "Work" to get in (How does that work when you can just fly in with Gustav from half screen and be +1 or BETTER (Hi, for you 'oh, oh, if you IB it's a BIIIIG -2!' folks, you're wrong - it's only +1 at point blank range - any further away and you are MORE PLUS.)

*sigh* Neutral jump kills Gustaf. You get a free combo if you jump at the right time. QQ.

This is like, the same stuff they nerfed on Tsubaki when people thought her CS2 shield rush was too useful. But no, he gets it, because he has a 'hard time getting in'. :P Because a teleport dash is in no way as good as other people's. Right.

For a character like Tsubaki, who has access to all of the normal mobility options in the game, something like a fast advancing move with a good hitbox that is pretty safe on block most likely IS too good, from a designers' perspective, especially if it's something that made the character significantly better than she is now or was previously. This isn't Street Fighter, where characters take a risk just walking forward at the wrong range: you have fast dashes that can be cancelled at any time into jumps or Barrier (or even better, jump and Barrier! Covers both angles, mostly safe, free combo punish on players who attempt bigger, laggier pokes to stop you from rushing in). Azrael instead has his teleport, which covers only a set distance, has a very limited mobility, and is only cancelable into jumps. This gives him his own options for getting around, but I would definitely say it is NOT equivalent to the normal mobility options that almost every other character in the game possesses. Again, look at this from the way the developers look at it and it makes sense. When you take into account that Azrael himself isn't overpowered, it will make sense from a player's perspective as well. Get mad at ASW for making Tsubaki bad, not for making Azrael good.

So yeah, if I'm bitter at Azrael getting BUFFS for no reason, it's because they keep treating my character, who has a fundamentally similar gameplan (Short range normals, need to get in, mix up, do damage) like crap.

As I mentioned, this perspective makes no sense. Azrael buffs are mostly fluff and insignificant, and will not change him a whole lot, which is good, because he's fine where he is. You wanna be mad about Tsubaki being bad? That's fine, but don't take it out on characters who are not overpowered. Or better yet, just play someone else and quit your whining.

Also, where are these so-called Jin nerfs? Not seeing anything in his notes that looks remotely nerf like.

Similar case to Azrael, IMO. Jin is a character where it's really easy to over-nerf him because he's all about being the total package. Even then, he's still not top tier, so they're probably really leery about how much they want to change him. If you want evidence of this, look at the see-saw he and Ragna have been doing between each game:

CT: Jin secret top tier, Ragna not very good

CS1: Ragna really good, Jin not so good

CS2: Jin really good, Ragna not so good

CSEX: Ragna top tier, Jin not so good

CP: Ragna actually pretty good (just no one on DL wants to admit it), Jin really good (but probably not as good as everyone on DL thinks)

They are probably afraid that if they nerf him too much, Jin will dip right back down again. Now, as a bitter Tsubaki player, you might be okay with that, but I don't think most other people would be, and the developers don't seem to think it would be a good idea either. Deal with it.

[redsilversnake]

And seriously, 'this character has it worse so it's just not fair' is such a shit argument. That is an argument for buffs for that character, not for nerfs to another.

That he doesn't realize this is why it's best to just ignore Airk. From what I remember, he tends to focus too much on characters in relation to his own, and Tsubaki doesn't exactly rank that highly in this game, which, among other things, makes for a poor discussion point on this topic.

Anyway, concerning Azrael, I might as well cite a player (granted, via a different player) better than anyone in this thread, who just so happens to play the character in question: https://twitter.com/jiyunaJP/status/428472849519497216

Note that he still ranks him highly, just puts him as more fair than some of the other strong characters. It's admittedly not the same as an in-depth breakdown, but still.

Edited February 14, 2014 by redsilversnake

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Again, you're just putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have any above-average tools or even that I expect the game to be completely and totally fair (which, for some reason, is always the assumption people seem to make about the opinions of someone who even suggests that a high tier character get nerfed), but that some of his stuff is better than it should be. I'm willing to retract some of the things I said, but the idea that Azrael shouldn't get any nerfs is still a foolish one. Especially when replying under the apparent assumption that who you're talking to thinks there should only be nerfs.

You've provided zero justification for why Azrael needs nerfs. Nobody agrees with you. I say that perspective only makes sense when the ideas I've put forward are in place, and you whine about me putting words in your mouth, which is not something I'm doing. I'm just taking your perspective and saying it really only makes sense if you hold those ideas; if you don't hold them, then there is no justification for your opinion.

Again, Azrael is decidedly not top tier, none of his abilities are starkly overpowered when present in the full context of his character design and the game itself. Why should he be nerfed? You have yet to answer this question, so that leaves me only to assume what you think, based on the logic you've used. If you don't want to feel like I'm putting words in your mouth, then justify your opinions a little more clearly.

Did you miss the part where I only used to play a weak character? And then proceed to not specify which one I currently play?

Again, the only justification that you've given for your opinion was based on your prior experience playing a weak character, which you have since retracted since said justification was overruled by other information. Explain yourself better.

Except, again, that isn't what I said. "This character could do with a few nerfs"≠"This character should be weak." By all means, buff the weak characters. Just don't assume that that'll automatically have them catch up to the better characters if you're also going to buff the latter.

Again, Azrael's buffs are largely fluff and will not make any serious impact on him as a character. In addition, as mentioned multiple times, the backdash nerf may significantly affect him, and so we don't know really how he will look in this new version (the Growler change may end up being a life saver if his BD got nerfed hard). So again, what is the justification for nerfing him, outside of the simple opinion that something he has is "too good" for some unknown reason?

[Ragnarok_F4]

Also if a Makoto out there has a way to deal with all of Azrael's options on wakeup, please educate me.

I'm going to give an opinion. That's the worst possible scenario for her against Azrael, it's quite difficult to get out, specially on the corner. Against him, abuse the orb and use it as a shield when he is afar. For him to get past it is difficult as hell. The orb covers you against Gustaf, Black Hawk, 6C, 3C, Sentinel Dump, sometimes his dash and some of his air to ground moves, like his dive kick. So, he needs to jump over it, so you punish him with an anti-air. If he gets in, on wakeup DPunching him is very risky, since his dash cross-up is one of his main tools and you will whiff the DP, he also can bait it with his back dash very easily. Personally, I prefer to mash him 2A/5A since his normals are very slow, and you will punish his dash cross-up.

[bakahyl]

Nerfing backdashes... This could put Tager possibly back into bottom tier status

[Lucalibur]

I'm gonna ignore the stupid 'Azrael needs nerfs' posts on the last page and move on to more important topics for now. We're going on about nerfed backdashes and everything, but I think they said backdashes would be ADJUSTED, not NERFED? As in, they would be CHANGED, but that doesn't exactly mean they're gonna be NERFED? I could be wrong but I don't think it was outright stated backdashes will be getting some sort of universal nerf.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

lol everyone will have Azrael backdash now!

[NecroTheReaper]

Will that mean Relius will actually get a 13 frame backdash? There's been a lot of speculation about the damn things duration since before CP came to consoles.