[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Dreiko]

The abc versions were mostly useless or very minor in difference. They went the more individual and standout route which is best. Just think of Order Sol. His fire levels make all of his moves very distinct from each version of itself. Both in look and effect. This samey nature of Tsubaki's specials with just a lighting effect and distance/startup/hitstun differing was very dull in a SF kinda way which has no place in BB. They cut out the fat with that change in CP, it was a great move. Most of em (her dp and j236A most notably) got seriously buffed in the transition too.

[D.R.F.]

Because there is such a thing as having too many options. It's either that some of them are worthless, or all of them are equally good and opponent has an unreasonably hard time fighting them.

There kinda is having too many good options. Then we get shit like gordeau and AC Eddie. But no tsubaki needs better normals to apply scary honest pressure or decent mixup to keep people guessing. There is no fear in her game which makes her a crappy rushdown character and she doesnt have competent footsie tools to present against others. One or the other imo.

[StylisH]

Because there is such a thing as having too many options. It's either that some of them are worthless, or all of them are equally good and opponent has an unreasonably hard time fighting them.

 

Somebody should have notified Litchi about having too many options

[SoWL]

Somebody should have notified Litchi about having too many options

I think you missed the second part of my post or something.

[Verimeloni]

214D being a low sounds doable but 22D being overhead would look bizarre. Either way, wouldn't that be just changing her specials once again? I thought the fundamental issue was her normals. Even if I would be a bit envious, if they gave her a 22f overhead and improved hitboxes before they tamper with her specials, I feel like a lot of good come come out in the end.

 

We already have some bizarre overheads (Valiant Crash) and only making the D version an overhead would improve her mixup. Like if suddenly she could do > 2B > 22D (or 6A > 22D for double OH mixup), it would cost a stock but add to her pressure. Same with 214D being a low.

[Dreiko]

ABC weren't "options" unless "have this combo do 70 more damage" counts as an option. They had very situational uses where using one over the other in a combo would slightly prolong it and that's kinda that. 95% of the time they offered the illusion of "options" and only ever really presented you with one option. Just cause you can go to two useless versions of the move you want in addition to the useful version, that doesn't make the useless versions equally valid as options. For most of her stuff she just had the one option if you wanted to play her well.

[StylisH]

I think you missed the second part of my post or something.

 

I'm simply saying that all of her tools are equally good and pretty much everyone has an unreasonably difficult time fighting her, which is what you said.

[FKGunBlaze]

The only thing that us, the Terumi mains care about Celica and Lambda-11, is that we love having more heads to stomp

AMEN!

[Errol]

The abc versions were mostly useless or very minor in difference. They went the more individual and standout route which is best. Just think of Order Sol. His fire levels make all of his moves very distinct from each version of itself. Both in look and effect. This samey nature of Tsubaki's specials with just a lighting effect and distance/startup/hitstun differing was very dull in a SF kinda way which has no place in BB. They cut out the fat with that change in CP, it was a great move. Most of em (her dp and j236A most notably) got seriously buffed in the transition too.

 

Only part of this is true, really.  Here are the things i have to say:

 

1. Very little done to differentiate Normal version and Drive versions. Despite costing a charge, 623D is usually worse than using 623C. D air fireball has no use. D ground fireball has some but it's very similar to the chargeless one. J214D has no use. 214D has no use (214B doesn't either). 236D is ok, though kind of "eh" compared to just using 236C and doing a D followup. 22D since it is no longer unblockable is still used occasionally, but 40 frame startup for +8 that pushes you halfway across the screen is very obviously blah (people can usually manage to jump out or even hit you if you they barrier it)

 

In comparison, D move differentiation was better in EX. 236D was quicker startup, but that got nerfed in CP. 22D was unblockable. 214D had significantly more invulnerability and could be useful for going through projectiles (214b/d in CP are useful for nothing). J236D had a projectile, and the normals didn't (was not worth using the projectile for the most part, but for some setups, unblockable setups, etc). 

 

2. Actually besides the DP, Tsubaki's specials were all around nerfed in CP. She gained the fireball, but she lost a lot. reward was increased, but in other ways stuff was nerfed.

a. 236X startups slowed, and travel significantly less far/slower, but higher reward. 

b. raw 214X is 100% useless without the ability to go through projectiles or invuln thru air moves. followup 214D is a bit more useful overall.

c. J214X had startups all significantly increased, and landing recovery greatly increased.  It was a good use of meter to RC these in EX. in CP, reward is higher, but risk is greatly increased, because j214c is much slower and if it doesn't hit you're DEAD. Also significant nerf when you are not even trying to hit with it - i.e. j214C out of the corner after a double jump, or if you tech in the air.

d. J236X. the new fireball is nice, but the old j236B/C had significant uses (in neutral/pressure, not combos) and were totally removed. 

e. 22X. 22A had a lot lower reward than 22B in CP, but 22B in CP is just too slow. 22A in EX was a fast, far reaching move that was useful in neutral.  22D was the unblockable. these have been mostly removed from my gameplay.

[StylisH]

Only part of this is true, really.  Here are the things i have to say:

 

1. Very little done to differentiate Normal version and Drive versions. Despite costing a charge, 623D is usually worse than using 623C. D air fireball has no use. D ground fireball has some but it's very similar to the chargeless one. J214D has no use. 214D has no use (214B doesn't either). 236D is ok, though kind of "eh" compared to just using 236C and doing a D followup. 22D since it is no longer unblockable is still used occasionally, but 40 frame startup for +8 that pushes you halfway across the screen is very obviously blah (people can usually manage to jump out or even hit you if you they barrier it)

 

In comparison, D move differentiation was better in EX. 236D was quicker startup, but that got nerfed in CP. 22D was unblockable. 214D had significantly more invulnerability and could be useful for going through projectiles (214b/d in CP are useful for nothing). J236D had a projectile, and the normals didn't (was not worth using the projectile for the most part, but for some setups, unblockable setups, etc). 

 

2. Actually besides the DP, Tsubaki's specials were all around nerfed in CP. She gained the fireball, but she lost a lot. reward was increased, but in other ways stuff was nerfed.

a. 236X startups slowed, and travel significantly less far/slower, but higher reward. 

b. raw 214X is 100% useless without the ability to go through projectiles or invuln thru air moves. followup 214D is a bit more useful overall.

c. J214X had startups all significantly increased, and landing recovery greatly increased.  It was a good use of meter to RC these in EX. in CP, reward is higher, but risk is greatly increased, because j214c is much slower and if it doesn't hit you're DEAD. Also significant nerf when you are not even trying to hit with it - i.e. j214C out of the corner after a double jump, or if you tech in the air.

d. J236X. the new fireball is nice, but the old j236B/C had significant uses (in neutral/pressure, not combos) and were totally removed. 

e. 22X. 22A had a lot lower reward than 22B in CP, but 22B in CP is just too slow. 22A in EX was a fast, far reaching move that was useful in neutral.  22D was the unblockable. these have been mostly removed from my gameplay.

It takes a pretty sick individual to nerf Tsubaki, who wasn't all that great to begin with. She really does need better normals though (specials too) especially when it's so easy to disrespect her.

[Dreiko]

Regarding j214 series, their new knockdown properties which allow for air combos to give you oki when they didn't I'd say override the negatives. In extend you never under any circumstance wanted to end a non-lethal combo in the air due to j214 being as it was.

Regarding the rest, all that really was lost was gimmicks. Gimmicks which often didn't work and if they did it was only sparce. A 30some frame unblockable and some gimpy mid body invuln moves aren't significant. People being poked with 22A unless on CH wouldn't get hurt much and while in CP the utility of it is lost in neutral a 22B counter leads to much greater damage.

I'm not saying nothing was lost, I'm saying what did get lost was mostly not applicable or really legit for 95% of situations. They weren't distinct enough moves with radically different uses like how for example lvl 1 rock it is a safe poke while lvl 2 is an oki ender and lvl 3 a combo extention tool which otgs. This is the standard that must be met for versions of the same move to feel like different moves with equal but different properties, making them into actual options.

[Errol]

they nerfed her normals again in CP but they improved the followup timings. 5bb 2bb 5cc all had gaps on IB in EX, 5bb had a gap even without IB. none of them have gaps even on IB now. but her normals were nerfed in other ways, and barrier change affects her a lot, more than other characters.  Good typical example is that if you barrier 5a5bb, then even if overhead barely manages to hit, the 5c afterwards will whiff. 

[Errol]

Regarding j214 series, their new knockdown properties which allow for air combos to give you oki when they didn't I'd say override the negatives. In extend you never under any circumstance wanted to end a non-lethal combo in the air due to j214 being as it was.

Regarding the rest, all that really was lost was gimmicks. Gimmicks which often didn't work and if they did it was only sparce. A 30some frame unblockable and some gimpy mid body invuln moves aren't significant. People being poked with 22A unless on CH wouldn't get hurt much and while in CP the utility of it is lost in neutral a 22B counter leads to much greater damage.

I'm not saying nothing was lost, I'm saying what did get lost was mostly not applicable or really legit for 95% of situations. They weren't distinct enough moves with radically different uses like how for example lvl 1 rock it is a safe poke while lvl 2 is an oki ender and lvl 3 a combo extention tool which otgs. This is the standard that must be met for versions of the same move to feel like different moves with equal but different properties, making them into actual options.

 

 

Nah.  I also fit into the category that enjoyed EX more. I think she's a bit better in CP, but not that much. But I think she's much less fun. 

 

Pressure was much much stronger in EX because barrier wasn't the big fuck you tsubaki tool that it is now. combo flexibility was a lot better. Combos were much more stable. Her specials were generally more useful.  New stuff is better in combos/better reward, that's it.

 

mostly not applicable/really legit for 95% of situations?.... go watch konan play in EX.  It's a different game. 

[Dreiko]

Nah. I also fit into the category that enjoyed EX more. I think she's a bit better in CP, but not that much. But I think she's much less fun.

Pressure was much much stronger in EX because barrier wasn't the big fuck you tsubaki tool that it is now. combo flexibility was a lot better. Combos were much more stable. Her specials were generally more useful. New stuff is better in combos/better reward, that's it.

mostly not applicable/really legit for 95% of situations?.... go watch konan play in EX. It's a different game.

I'm not talking about the fun aspect here. I'm talking about her moves having a b c versions not really being unique enough. Konan/Kurisu making gimmicks work wonders doesn't make them not-gimmicks, it just makes these players really smart. It's still not the same as Valk doing instant overheads on you for days. That's something that's legitly good and doesn't need a savant to make it work.

On the fun matter, I'll actually agree with you. I've used her much less in cp than in Extend (Izayoi speeks like her more too so that also adds to it). I just wasn't talking about that at all here.

[D.R.F.]

Well we found an answer: give tsubaki rock it.

[StylisH]

I'm not talking about the fun aspect here. I'm talking about her moves having a b c versions not really being unique enough. Konan/Kurisu making gimmicks work wonders doesn't make them not-gimmicks, it just makes these players really smart. It's still not the same as Valk doing instant overheads on you for days. That's something that's legitly good and doesn't need a savant to make it work.

On the fun matter, I'll actually agree with you. I've used her much less in cp than in Extend (Izayoi speeks like her more too so that also adds to it). I just wasn't talking about that at all here.

I don't know, seems like the majority opinion here these days consider IOHs pretty cheap.

But good players find ways to win, regardless of the character. Look how many Koko players get washed on the tourney scene. And having fun is an important part of it. It is, after all a game. I see where you're coming from though.

[destruction_adv]

I don't know, seems like the majority opinion here these days consider IOHs pretty cheap.

But good players find ways to win, regardless of the character. Look how many Koko players get washed on the tourney scene. And having fun is an important part of it. It is, after all a game. I see where you're coming from though.

Aren't IOH's really common in other games though?

[D.R.F.]

Kinda yea. They are def. There (sf4, gg, darkstalkers I am not completely sure about, etc.) In this case Rachel's ioh doesnt make her a broken character, but meh

[Errol]

I'm not talking about the fun aspect here. I'm talking about her moves having a b c versions not really being unique enough. Konan/Kurisu making gimmicks work wonders doesn't make them not-gimmicks, it just makes these players really smart. It's still not the same as Valk doing instant overheads on you for days. That's something that's legitly good and doesn't need a savant to make it work.

On the fun matter, I'll actually agree with you. I've used her much less in cp than in Extend (Izayoi speeks like her more too so that also adds to it). I just wasn't talking about that at all here.

 

the funny thing is the ABC versions she STILL has were and are the LEAST unique ones she has. 236AB are and j214AB are combo only. J214C is the only one useful outside of a combo. 236C and 236D are both used but the difference is really minor.

 

I used J236A for combos, J236B and J236C at different times in neutral/pressure. 214A was used in combos, 214D was used in neutral (very occasionally 214ABC outside of combos/neutral). I used 623A as a reversal, 623B to beat people using DPs on their wakeup (poor man's ID), 623C in combos. 

J214C RC was used all the time in neutral etc. A strong tool, doesn't matter who you are, and not gimmicky at all. J214A/B had no meaning, and still have no meaning except for choosing how to end your combo.

 

22A was used In neutral, for a quick poke to beat someone at a range. It was excellent for catching someone landing from a jump at a far range. And at round start, it would beat a lot of chars options, though the risk reward was usually off (typical tsubaki style).  None of that is really true anymore.

 

In EX, you could followup 236D on hit or on block with 22A to frame trap. Got lots of people mashing after 236D with that. in CP you have little choice but to block.  22C was a reasonable block string ender that also took a primer. but potentially punishable on IB, cause, you know, tsubaki.  22B was safer just on account of there being no gap from a normal.  22D was risky and worked less the higher up you went. but it sure was fun, almost everyone wants that back.

 

 

Basically: If they want to remove moves because they aren't differentiated enough, that's fine.  They could at least choose the correct ones?  They could have taken 22A. They could have not nerfed the hell out of dives in neutral.  They could have not nerfed shield rushes. They could have *LEFT* the J236B/C which were interesting tools (j236A was the useless combo fodder one anyway).  They could have left either proj invuln or head invuln on 214B/D to make them have some type of use.  Or they could have extended the invuln so they could be useful for something... or made the invuln startup quicker. anything at all.  the dp they did a good job on.

 

but that's all why I switched to Rachel when CP came out. Both weak & not fun. Time to play something else as a main.

[Errol]

So the contents of the matches were fun in EX.

 

But I'd lose because I hit hakumen/ragna/hazama five times and then he'd hit me for the second time and I'd be dead. 

 

In Cp it's kind of like if I hit 5 times I'll win but I'll still die if I get hit 3 times and shit ain't fun either.

[destruction_adv]

Kinda yea. They are def. There (sf4, gg, darkstalkers I am not completely sure about, etc.) In this case Rachel's ioh doesnt make her a broken character, but meh

They're also pretty common in SG and I think Marvel, but it's kinda expected for those kinds of games isn't it?

[D.R.F.]

Those types of games you never want to be stuck blocking. #1 way to lose baby, get caught in a blockstring.

[StylisH]

They're also pretty common in SG and I think Marvel, but it's kinda expected for those kinds of games isn't it?

They are common, and I was being sarcastic due to earlier comments on that subject

[destruction_adv]

Those types of games you never want to be stuck blocking. #1 way to lose baby, get caught in a blockstring.

Yeah, blazblue mix-up is actually pretty tame in comparison. I guess that's why I neer thought of rachels IOH as much of a problem.

[Angel-tastic]

Well, I don't think that Rachel's IOH is a problem. I just think that it makes her a one-dimensional character since she doesn't really have any other decent mix-up. To be overly general, Rachel is pretty much in the same boat as Tsubaki in that their move pools are both pretty mediocre, except that Rachel actually has one really good move, while Tsubaki doesn't. I think they would both benefit more from just having all their normals buffed rather than relying on gimmicks. I guess Rachel's isn't necessarily a gimmick since it works well, but she's still kind of a one-trick pony.