TeeJay Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 I guess there is too much Tsubaki discussion in here. I guess she's getting some love right now. When is the next loketest? I'm curious what is the timetable for this new patch. Between P4U and Xrd? There are so many games to track right now.
Myoro Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 I guess there is too much Tsubaki discussion in here. I guess she's getting some love right now. When is the next loketest? I'm curious what is the timetable for this new patch. Between P4U and Xrd? There are so many games to track right now. Most people seem to be convinced it'll be a new disc like how CS was to CSE. Is it wrong that I'd support that if it meant keeping my 3C on another disk?
TD Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 I use it scarcely because following up into j.236D leads to them just dashing under me to score a CH whiles following up into j.214D just delays the inevitable because blocking j.214D still leads to a punish due to the ridiculous amount of landing recovery it has. Both of these options also use up a charge. One thing to take note of that many people do not know is that you cannot late chain the followup on whiff or block, so if you don't do the inputs immediately they won't happen. Her DP has a whopping 64 frames of recovery and is -21 on block, so all someone needs to do is wait when you see her DP in neutral or if the DP is blocked because a punish is inevitable. Just like every single one of Tsubaki's tools, strategies, and gimmicks, they only work on people who don't know the matchup. Once they are used, you really cannot use them a second time and hope that they will work again. If someone is well versed in the matchup, you are really really screwed unless you can read minds. Oh wow, that is new to me. I wasn't aware she couldn't late chain her dp options. Poor thing. @command grab. It is decent if not underwhelming. By the way, after the second time, doing the command grab with full heat gets you basically nothing. While tager can get DAMAGE, both haz's get meter and super cancel with one getting good corner carry, kagura gets a combo, Noel gets a combo, nirvana gets a combo, valk gets full resource and a combo in corner... Did I miss anyone? Tsu's doesn't even give her corner carry or any noteworthy damage. It can be rc'd but then you don't get the charges, and does it have a good starter and proration? The biggest problem with it is that it doesn't exactly solve her problem or even fit her play style. I mean, it could, but the high/low game is terrible, barrier> tsu, she can't really deal with mash or jump, how are you going to threaten people when they aren't scared? I remember getting hit by the grab three times in a row once. And my exact words were "ehh". It just isn't scary. It doesn't even frustrate. Tager and hazama have that covered better. Why does hazama even have a command grab.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 From what I have looked into, her biggest changes are that her Slaver Trans-Am super can be used even with 1 dingle and probably has its timer based on how many dingles were used, her 623C is now a DP, and she can cancel her Strike Fall D air followup into her Astraea 6D ground followup. Apparently her combo paths have been changed as well. Wow, I didn't know about either of these :o Having a DP should help her a LOT, and hopefully the new paths are on par with what we have now. Knowing a bit is better than nothing, thanks
Myoro Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 @command grab. It is decent if not underwhelming. By the way, after the second time, doing the command grab with full heat gets you basically nothing. While tager can get DAMAGE, both haz's get meter and super cancel with one getting good corner carry, kagura gets a combo, Noel gets a combo, nirvana gets a combo, valk gets full resource and a combo in corner... Did I miss anyone? Tsu's doesn't even give her corner carry or any noteworthy damage. It can be rc'd but then you don't get the charges, and does it have a good starter and proration? Heh, you missed Bang, Bullet, and Terumi. At least it isn't as aweful as Terumi's in terms of start-up. (Although his does give better reward.) It's always been hilarious how Bullet, the supposed grappler, has only a 50 heat command grab with a crazy input she wasn't built to easily do and no range or utility, and Kagura has a heatless one that is just the press of 2 buttons and leads to better damage (Barring H2.) Oh, and Kokonoe if we're counting astrals.
NecroTheReaper Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 That's exactly what I said though. Her command grab has good grame data is basically all I said. If her other options don't allow her to make use of it however, its not gonna work out well. I wouldn't count Noel's grab in there with the others since its basically a low mixup option instead of a true command grab. Nirvana's isn't a grab either. Tager is a grappler who has issues of his own, so his should be good. Haz and Valk are the only ones that can freely make their command grabs a threat. Terumi's sucks. Plat's sucks unless you have a specific setup for it. Bang's is stupid bad on wiff (leads to good dmg though). Kagura's is only available in drive which normally he has the same issue as Tsubaki when it comes to connecting with it. Looking through this... I don't think Ark knows how to implement command grabs lol.
TD Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Heh, you missed Bang, Bullet, and Terumi. At least it isn't as aweful as Terumi's in terms of start-up. (Although his does give better reward.) It's always been hilarious how Bullet, the supposed grappler, has only a 50 heat command grab with a crazy input she wasn't built to easily do and no range or utility, and Kagura has a heatless one that is just the press of 2 buttons and leads to better damage (Barring H2.) Ah, the two characters I'm not fond of. What a surprise i forgot all about them. I included terumi though as the second haz. Thanks. Teru also has a rather long range one. He is a short range character for all intensive purposes and just as low as tsu, and his grab is a lot more scary than hers.
SoWL Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Most people seem to be convinced it'll be a new disc like how CS was to CSE. Last time we had a 2.0 expansion, it was a patch rather than a separate disc.Heh, you missed Bang, Bullet, and Terumi. I don't think Bullet is relevant here, unless we're discussing DD throws or you consider Miquelet a command throw (it isn't). Also, 720 is not that difficult to abuse with her: you have a forward dash (unlike Tager), a Drive cancel, 2B and 5C as buffers, and probably some more things I'm forgetting right now. On the other hand, she also needs more resources for it to deal damage, but even without it, the reward is good enough to be a threat. Speaking of which, I wonder why it's always the Tsubaki players who bring up their character in balance discussions rather than the Bullet/Makoto ones.
chzchan Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Ah, the two characters I'm not fond of. What a surprise i forgot all about them. I included terumi though as the second haz. Thanks. Teru also has a rather long range one. He is a short range character for all intensive purposes and just as low as tsu, and his grab is a lot more scary than hers. It has faster startup than Tsubaki's overhead. It at least has its risk/reward in the right places. Speaking of which, I wonder why it's always the Tsubaki players who bring up their character in balance discussions rather than the Bullet/Makoto ones. As a whole and in general, I would say Makoto is much worse off than Tsubaki in a few of the same places actually, but I don't think as many people play her. Makoto does shine in a few places where Tsubaki definitely does not, though. Bullet, in my opinion, is way better off than Tsubaki in a lot of specific areas. She is almost Tsubaki+ minus the run-type dash with her normals and how her heat up level system works. That's how it feels when fighting her.
Myoro Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 1.Last time we had a 2.0 expansion, it was a patch rather than a separate disc. 2.I don't think Bullet is relevant here, unless we're discussing DD throws or you consider Miquelet a command throw (it isn't). Also, 720 is not that difficult to abuse with her: you have a forward dash (unlike Tager), a Drive cancel, 2B and 5C as buffers, and probably some more things I'm forgetting right now. On the other hand, she also needs more resources for it to deal damage, but even without it, the reward is good enough to be a threat. 3.Speaking of which, I wonder why it's always the Tsubaki players who bring up their character in balance discussions rather than the Bullet/Makoto ones. 1.We kinda had 1.1 for that. 2.0 is confirmed for changed character select screen and new opening. Now I'm an optimist, but for the opening they had to bring in a singer and a few animators and actually give them money, and unlike 1.1 we've got new characters and loketests which also cost a pretty penny I imagine. I myself am about 85% certain we've got a new disc on our hands. 2. Well we counted Noel didn't we? both have command grabs that whiff on crouch. Heck, if we were counting distortions we could include Tao for her 214214C. At this point were kinda wondering into a grey area though. I don't think Bullet's command grab has ever been used on me in a serious fight, and I have a track record of getting command grabbed. That's kinda the only way I can judge it's usefulness in ways of my experience never having touched Bullet, but it kinda seems flawed in theory too. I don't understand why one would use it over a Rapid for extra heat-up, and when you have heat-up you can get better damage without risking 50% heat and a nasty punish pretty consistently no? 3. That's because unlike the other two, Tsubaki is deetering on being passable. The other guys have already succumbed to despair.
chzchan Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Wow, I didn't know about either of these :o Having a DP should help her a LOT, and hopefully the new paths are on par with what we have now. Knowing a bit is better than nothing, thanks If they keep 623C teleport cancellable, it will be the safest DP in the entire game. Not only do you get to charge it by holding down C, you also have the ability to stance cancel it. Hell, even if they restrict the teleport cancellability to her D teleport, it only costs 1 dingle right now and that is supde duper cheap compared to the 50 heat other characters with meterless reversals have to spend. It is literally a get out of jail free card. With D teleport it will be a get out of jail free+ card for the cost of 1 resource. You can back out of it in neutral if you feel it is unsafe. 623C~A You can choose not to deal with its recovery on block for free. 623C > 214A/B/C You can choose not to deal with its recovery on whiff at the cost of one resource. 623C > 214D You can go into a full combo out of it at the cost of one or more resources. N starter. P1 value of 90. This move will be BROKEN if left as is and given full body frame 1 invuln. I am really scared that Izayoi might become super duper overpowered/easy in 2.0. I also can't wait to play her.
Myoro Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 If they keep 623C teleport cancellable, it will be the safest DP in the entire game. Not only do you get to charge it by holding down C, you also have the ability to stance cancel it. Hell, even if they restrict the teleport cancellability to her D teleport, it only costs 1 dingle right now and that is supde duper cheap compared to the 50 heat other characters with meterless reversals have to spend. It is literally a get out of jail free card. With D teleport it will be a get out of jail free+ card for the cost of 1 resource. You can back out of it in neutral if you feel it is unsafe. 623C~A You can choose not to deal with its recovery on block for free. 623C > 214A/B/C You can choose not to deal with its recovery on whiff at the cost of one resource. 623C > 214D You can go into a full combo out of it at the cost of one or more resources. N starter. P1 value of 90. This move will be BROKEN if left as is and given full body frame 1 invuln. I am really scared that Izayoi might become super duper powerful/easy in 2.0. I also can't wait to play her. I'm also exited for this. When a DP is really good/safe it gets thrown a lot. It's my mission in life to led ley them all, and then the following burst. But I doubt they'd leave it how it is. They didn't even let Kagu keep his DP.
Monarch Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Using 214X to make 623C on block safe may not be a good idea. Her teleport is pretty unsafe, so by using any version of 214X you'd pretty much be eating a CH.
TD Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 623c doesn't have a great horizontal hitbox I believe. It can whiff to well spaced attacks which WILL be a thing. Teleports should be fine because recovery is getting her a slight disadvantage neutral reset at best and combo'd at worst. I guess it depends on how she teleports. In the corner the teleport of choice will be painfully telegraphed. Reward of hit also needs stars. No stars and she's probably getting 2k mad in either mode. I'm not getting an OP vibe from her new DP, and there may be more changes and even hidden ones come game release. It will probably be edited a bit. She did need a meter less DP though. This is a nice way of making her more unique.
chzchan Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 I'm not saying she didn't desperately need a meterless way out of pressure besides 6A, but a simple and more importantly safe way out of pressure after wakeup at the cost of 1 resource is just a gigantic leap above what she needed. I will absolutely hate fighting Izayois if this is not dealt with properly. I mean imagine Bang's Ashura super (you know the one they can use when you get a knockdown in the corner that you have to IB at close range in order to punish), but instead of costing 50 heat, Izayoi will get to use it after making you block her specials or projectiles once. It is a dirt cheap ticket out of the corner and out of general pressure. It will be complete hell for rushdown characters to deal with, especially because of the air options she got in 1.1. If they make it so that it only has DP properties in normal mode, I will be really really satisfied because it is what I have always wanted mechanics-wise for Izayoi. Normal mode to be a defensive resource building mode and Gain Art mode to be an offensive resource spending mode. Right now it is more like Normal mode is fetus mode and Gain Art is actually good but needs some work mode.
Angry Guy of DE Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 I always sweat a little when someone mentions Kagura's command throw, I don't want you to remember that he has that. Just keeping blocking, I'm sure I'll just try a 5B or 6A on you honest >_>. Also super not happy about Kagura's nerf to his Flash-kick, who's bright idea was it to take away 6C's head invul and think that a charge move with head invul is going to be usable...guh. Honestly If Tsubaki's bars were able to be converted into Order Sol levels of damage and her D versions of moves gave her better frame advantage or invul/guardpoint to blow through mashing she could be scary once she gets in. Right now she has a hard time getting in and her damage feels below average without spending meter, bars, or situational confirms. Then again she is almost canon unable to beat anyone in the story...
Airk Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Then again she is almost canon unable to beat anyone in the story... No, it's only canon that she can't beat anyone she CARES about beating. :P (aka the characters who are important to the "plot") Tsubaki's command grab is a VS starter, but the proration isn't bad if you cancel it early; If you RC, and have 25% heat left for a CT AND 2 charges from before, you can get like 4k, in theory, but I've never actually seen it happen in a match.
Angry Guy of DE Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 But again that follows with what I'm saying is that her damage output is low without spending more resources than other characters. Like Order Sol took chunks if he had his heat gauge even at just lvl 2, lvl3 was an honest 40% minimum combo with its damage. Her tracking sword super is pretty good but she can only use it as oki or if the opponent is on the other side of the screen. The threat of damage is so poor that unless she has all charges, pops mugen, and has meter her damage rarely hits 4K or higher
Narroo Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 No, it's only canon that she can't beat anyone she CARES about beating. :P (aka the characters who are important to the "plot") Tsubaki's command grab is a VS starter, but the proration isn't bad if you cancel it early; If you RC, and have 25% heat left for a CT AND 2 charges from before, you can get like 4k, in theory, but I've never actually seen it happen in a match. This talk about Tsubaki being bad makes me terrible. Airk's Tsubaki destroys me horribly in real life. Then again, I actually played very few people other than him. I hate netplay. But aside from that: Tsubaki is still low tier in the story. She can beat hot pants and that's probably about it. In the game: Tsubaki doesn't really have anything special that sticks out. Even I can tell that. I secretly wish that they'd buff her Mugen Install or drive such that she would get crazy gattlings by being able to chain her 2-part normals out-of-order. (For example: 5A->5B->5C->5BB->5CC->5AA) Silly, yes. But it would look cool as as heck and give her a better mix-game.) What are those 2-piece normals called anyways?
zaeris Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 She's bad time to move on lol Other issues are lack of mix up and unlikely to land a good starter, her goods buttons are 5a but 5a does little under the cp system unlike back in cs2 even with extend you could get a better combo. But even so i do t think its a lack of damage to some degree but just a lack of good tools and buttons in general.
D.R.F. Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 If she had better neutral tools she wouldnt have to rely on a jab to get staple damage. The shitty fact that her whiff cancel normals prorate her combos a lot doesnt help matters either
TeeJay Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 What are those 2-piece normals called anyways? you mean? 5BB 2BB 6BB 5CC 2CC or am I mistaken? Interesting: Mugen install as a sort of Goku Moroha.
D.R.F. Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 you mean? 5BB 2BB 6BB 5CC 2CC or am I mistaken? Interesting: Mugen install as a sort of Goku Moroha. That would be sick to see all that armor flying about.
Narroo Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 you mean? 5BB 2BB 6BB 5CC 2CC or am I mistaken? Interesting: Mugen install as a sort of Goku Moroha. I meant the term more normals that have multiple attacks that come out by hitting the button multiple times, like the Light/Normal Attacks in MvC2. That said, thanks for correcting my notation. I suppose it would be like Goku Moroha, but with no spamming; you'd have to cycle through you're attacks during block strings. Now Tsubaki can look even more loopy when she does her strings.
chzchan Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 There would be too much pushback from each of the moves even without barrier for it to make much of a difference.
Recommended Posts