[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Angry Guy of DE]

Without some level of heat-up or holding until the target is red Bullet's 2D and 6D are unsafe on block.

No heat-up level has both 5D, 2D, and 6D are -10 on block. Unlike 5D red lock (which is +2) 2D and 6D are still -8 on block.

With one level of heat-up you'll get the 50/50 mixup that blocked will leave you at neutral. 5D still leaves you at +4 which lets you continue pressure with a cushion to get frame traps.

Now popping OD to make use of constant 50/50's into massive damage is hilarious because you won't lose your heat-up if they manage to block it.

Long story short Its an unsafe 50/50 without heat-up and with at least one level of heat-up most Bullet players prefer the option to use 5D because

A) Its plus on block so pressure can continue.

B) Can catch jumpers and backdashers.

Especially with the second reason as every D that hits Bullet can get the safe jump j.C to continue pressure.

[SoWL]

Her 50/50 isn't ambiguous. This new option looks much more ambiguous.

I dunno, it looks to be about as ambiguous as Terumi's, since they share most of their start-up animation, too. But it's hard to argue things like these when they depend on whether or not your opponent is good enough to see through the mix-up.

Without some level of heat-up or holding until the target is red Bullet's 2D and 6D are unsafe on block.

No heat-up level has both 5D, 2D, and 6D are -10 on block. Unlike 5D red lock (which is +2) 2D and 6D are still -8 on block.

With one level of heat-up you'll get the 50/50 mixup that blocked will leave you at neutral. 5D still leaves you at +4 which lets you continue pressure with a cushion to get frame traps.

Now popping OD to make use of constant 50/50's into massive damage is hilarious because you won't lose your heat-up if they manage to block it.

Long story short Its an unsafe 50/50 without heat-up and with at least one level of heat-up most Bullet players prefer the option to use 5D because

A) Its plus on block so pressure can continue.

B) Can catch jumpers and backdashers.

Especially with the second reason as every D that hits Bullet can get the safe jump j.C to continue pressure.

I didn't even consider going for this mix-up without Heat-Up, mostly because you get little reward for quite a risk. On the other hand, landing even a single hit makes it much better, which is not unlike Terumi's situation (land a hit, do a combo, get meter for Orochi). The fact that she does have the option of doing it naked and even interchanging it with 5D still doesn't speak in Terumi's favor, however.

[Assassinine]

But it's hard to argue things like these when they depend on whether or not your opponent is good enough to see through the mix-up.

You dont have to see through the mixup. The low version cant be followed up with a combo and Terumi has such a long recovery that you can roll out of the corner. Just block high whenever you see a superflash and every outcome is more favorable than getting hit by the overhead.

The Bullet comparison doesnt even come close, because both 6D and 2D are positive on block and lead to 5-6K.

Comparison to Bullet would make more sense if 2D bounced them out of the corner and you couldnt follow up, so you lost corner oki, didnt get a level of heat up back, and did under 3k damage. The opponent would simply block high to avoid eating 6k, and if bullet did the low she would be throwing her whole gameplan under the bus by putting herself in the corner and losing all her levels, and not even getting high damage in return.

[Angel-tastic]

Could you imagine what it would be like if both of these supers were comboable in the corner? DD mixup > combo to get 50 heat into oki > DD mixup...

That's what I was thinking at first, but I didn't notice that he does his bow in the low version. That would've been pretty cool if you could do that. But who knows. Maybe both versions will wall bounce/stick in the corner or something.

So speaking of Bullet's 2D and 6D, how fast are they actually in terms of where the differences show up? The frame data says that they're 46 and 48 frames (with no Heat Up), but you don't actually have nearly that long to figure out which version of her drive she's doing. It's kind of like how Hazama's Ressenga is 26 frames with the stance, but you only have 19 frames to actually react to it. I'm wondering how many frames you actually have to react to Bullet's 2D/6D.

[TD]

That's what I was thinking at first, but I didn't notice that he does his bow in the low version. That would've been pretty cool if you could do that. But who knows. Maybe both versions will wall bounce/stick in the corner or something.

So speaking of Bullet's 2D and 6D, how fast are they actually in terms of where the differences show up? The frame data says that they're 46 and 48 frames (with no Heat Up), but you don't actually have nearly that long to figure out which version of her drive she's doing. It's kind of like how Hazama's Ressenga is 26 frames with the stance, but you only have 19 frames to actually react to it. I'm wondering how many frames you actually have to react to Bullet's 2D/6D.

Terumi will be able to do this well at 100 heat. The question is whether we will be RCing for damage and oki, or just oki.

Assuming the former, he will get good damage and half his heat back, maybe spend overdrive for another 50/50 which probably won't give him 100 heat again regardless. He'll then get one more chance at it if he uses overdrive, and if the low is used, he will give up pressure for a chance at damage.

Assuming the latter, it probably won't be used much unless it hits hard. You may see it occasionally to end a round but that is it. Unless the terumi is confident with their back to the corner, which is the worst position any character can be in and especially without a dp.

[Justice7541]

I dunno what the actual frames are on Bullet's 6D/2D but they're definitely reactable, albeit hard to do so. The high version hits considerably more quickly after the jump up so there is at least a tell. Going by what we know right now (we may all be wrong) low Orochi looks pretty much exactly like the overhead version, to the extent that you could play it back at 10% speed and probably not actually be able to tell the difference between the two.

Pure speculation based on a 3-second clip.

Also @ TD I'm guessing it'll probably wallbounce in corner like current OD Orochi does. You can still take oki off that although it's not like Terumi has super ambiguous mixups off a knockdown anyway.

[NecroTheReaper]

The issue is still the bow animation though, which his current orochi doesn't have. It'd have to have a lot of wallbounce untech time to be comboable.

[Assassinine]

Also @ TD I'm guessing it'll probably wallbounce in corner like current OD Orochi does. You can still take oki off that although it's not like Terumi has super ambiguous mixups off a knockdown anyway.

Whenever Terumi bows, he gets no oki, his opponent can roll for free.

[Justice7541]

The issue is still the bow animation though, which his current orochi doesn't have. It'd have to have a lot of wallbounce untech time to be comboable.

OD Orochi has the bow. It's one of the silly situations where the OD super is actually worse than the regular version. I think 2A still catches forward roll after the bow though but I could be wrong about that.

[NecroTheReaper]

If you could use OD orochi though, you could use his dp better. OD orochi is already limited to a round finisher, which 632146D does better at and 623B has good min damage for combos.

[Assassinine]

Its not necessarily worse in OD.

OD Orochi does somewhere in the ballpark of 1300 minimum damage, which makes it a nice option as an OD combo ender if you really want the extra damage at the cost of losing oki. You still have OD Soutenjin as an option if you want to keep oki.

Unfortunately you cannot 2A to catch rolls after using a super that ends with a bow. This is really the crux of the issue with low Orochi.

EDIT:

@Necro: Double-super enders do more damage than OD Fuuenjin. The primary use of OD Fuuenjin is to drain meter from your opponent or to do 5 gorillion damage on a gimmick reset.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Assassinine

[Loli Bacon]

Are you punishable if they neutral tech? And can you still force them to block a meaty if they roll? Or are you still negative on rolls?

[bakahyl]

Just speculating though but perhaps the OD version of the low Orochi DD won't have that bow (so it's like the complete opposite of the regular overhead Orochi DD ) so you might be able to combo from it.

[Myoro]

Just speculating though but perhaps the OD version of the low Orochi DD won't have that bow (so it's like the complete opposite of the regular overhead Orochi DD ) so you might be able to combo from it.

Problem here is that if it does take OD to combo from, then it's gonna be obvious which one you're gonna use in which situations.

Additionally, one should not be using OD out of combos in the first place, much less for an already risky resource consuming telegraphed mix-up. It might be good to use with left over OD after a combo, but I can't really think of a situation where you'd not have used all of your gauge or OD by then.

[bakahyl]

Problem here is that if it does take OD to combo from, then it's gonna be obvious which one you're gonna use in which situations.

Additionally, one should not be using OD out of combos in the first place, much less for an already risky resource consuming telegraphed mix-up. It might be good to use with left over OD after a combo, but I can't really think of a situation where you'd not have used all of your gauge or OD by then.

I was thinking of an alternate mid combo DD when in OD to add extra damage like Gouga Soutenjin, not as a starter. Because the old OD Orochi has the bowing animation that can't be combo'd after

[Assassinine]

Are you punishable if they neutral tech? And can you still force them to block a meaty if they roll? Or are you still negative on rolls?

Neutral tech is in Terumi's favor.

I did a bit more testing, it turns out that theres a character specific 1 frame link. If you do a 2A the first frame they pass you, these are my results. I dont have Kokonoe~

Hit: Mu, Makoto, Relius, Hakumen, Litchi, Azrael, Izayoi, Amane, Jin, Arakune, Carl, Tsubaki, Rachel, Bang, Nu.

Block: Ragna, Tao, Tager, Noel

Whiff: Hazama, Bullet, Kagura, Terumi, Platinum, Valk

This list changes slightly depending on how you land the super, with some characters becoming safer and others becoming more vulnerable. For the test i used blocked OD 5D 236D RC Burensen to simulate superflash mixup. It should be noted that for the characters that 2A hits, it is a true 1 frame link, the turbo buffer system cannot help you. The timing also varies slightly depending on the character you are fighting.

Characters that 2A hits, it hits after they pass you, you get 1700 meterless and they are midscreen, or you can use another 50% to sideswap combo for 2700.to get corner back. If you miss the 1 frame window you will whiff a 2A in the wrong direction and the enemy gets to pressure you.

Characters that block the 2A block it at max range with roll momentum, combined with block pushback means pretty much every followup normal will whiff or also be absolutely max range, meaning no mixup opportunities. The only option appears to be 6B pressure reset, but if it gets read as your only option, it will get blown up and you are down in the corner. If you try to dash 2A to get better options, it wont be meaty and they can mash.

Characters that 2A whiffs against can challenge you after they are done rolling.

My opinion remains unchanged, RC mixup is still much more appealing. RC mixup gives more mixup options, more follow-through options on block, regains more meter, and gives guarunteed oki that isnt reliant on landing a 1F link with variable timing against specific characters and requiring your last 50 heat if you even have it.

I was thinking of an alternate mid combo DD when in OD to add extra damage like Gouga Soutenjin, not as a starter. Because the old OD Orochi has the bowing animation that can't be combo'd after

Soutenjin will win out as a combo tool because it animates fast enough to not eat up much of your combo time. Low orochi is looking to be the longest 50 meter DD, so unless it animates really fast in OD, Soutenjin will beat it as a combo tool. OD Low Orochi may end up being a damaging combo ender at the cost of oki, but we wont know until we have the patch.

[Loli Bacon]

Neutral tech is in Terumi's favor.

I did a bit more testing, it turns out that theres a character specific 1 frame link. If you do a 2A the first frame they pass you, these are my results. I dont have Kokonoe~

Hit: Mu, Makoto, Relius, Hakumen, Litchi, Azrael, Izayoi, Amane, Jin, Arakune, Carl, Tsubaki, Rachel, Bang, Nu.

Block: Ragna, Tao, Tager, Noel

Whiff: Hazama, Bullet, Kagura, Terumi, Platinum, Valk

This list changes slightly depending on how you land the super, with some characters becoming safer and others becoming more vulnerable. For the test i used blocked OD 5D 236D RC Burensen to simulate superflash mixup. It should be noted that for the characters that 2A hits, it is a true 1 frame link, the turbo buffer system cannot help you. The timing also varies slightly depending on the character you are fighting.

Characters that 2A hits, it hits after they pass you, you get 1700 meterless and they are midscreen, or you can use another 50% to sideswap combo for 2700.to get corner back. If you miss the 1 frame window you will whiff a 2A in the wrong direction and the enemy gets to pressure you.

Characters that block the 2A block it at max range with roll momentum, combined with block pushback means pretty much every followup normal will whiff or also be absolutely max range, meaning no mixup opportunities. The only option appears to be 6B pressure reset, but if it gets read as your only option, it will get blown up and you are down in the corner. If you try to dash 2A to get better options, it wont be meaty and they can mash.

Characters that 2A whiffs against can challenge you after they are done rolling.

My opinion remains unchanged, RC mixup is still much more appealing. RC mixup gives more mixup options, more follow-through options on block, regains more meter, and gives guarunteed oki that isnt reliant on landing a 1F link with variable timing against specific characters and requiring your last 50 heat if you even have it.

Soutenjin will win out as a combo tool because it animates fast enough to not eat up much of your combo time. Low orochi is looking to be the longest 50 meter DD, so unless it animates really fast in OD, Soutenjin will beat it as a combo tool. OD Low Orochi may end up being a damaging combo ender at the cost of oki, but we wont know until we have the patch.

This still seems in your favor, I don't know why it's a problem. Even if you lost corner, you gain the opportunity to pressure, which is hilarious given 6B. Sounds fine.

[Assassinine]

6B is definitely looking to be more powerful with the buff its recieving, ill give you that.

The issue comes in when you consider the alternative to orochi mixup. The 5C RC mixup we have now offers similar damage, higher max damage due to N starters allowing 22C and OD combos, better meter return, better oki, with more than just high/low mixup, and if the opponent blocks the first mixup you can still try a weaker secondary mixup or use the buffed 6B to reset pressure.

If RC mixup is simply better than this superflash mixup in nearly every way, why bother? If they had simply copy-pasted the animation for current Orochi and swapped out the first hit with a low, it could have been a fantastic addition to his arsenal.

The new anti-air DD is also questionable. It costs 100 meter, can be barrier blocked, and any situation where you can combo into it you would be better served using Fuuenjin. I dont think theres any practical application of this super.

Terumi's absence from arcades and lack of playtesting is really starting to show, imo.

[Justice7541]

6B is definitely looking to be more powerful with the buff its recieving, ill give you that.

The issue comes in when you consider the alternative to orochi mixup. The 5C RC mixup we have now offers similar damage, higher max damage due to N starters allowing 22C and OD combos, better meter return, better oki, with more than just high/low mixup, and if the opponent blocks the first mixup you can still try a weaker secondary mixup or use the buffed 6B to reset pressure.

If RC mixup is simply better than this superflash mixup in nearly every way, why bother? If they had simply copy-pasted the animation for current Orochi and swapped out the first hit with a low, it could have been a fantastic addition to his arsenal.

The new anti-air DD is also questionable. It costs 100 meter, can be barrier blocked, and any situation where you can combo into it you would be better served using Fuuenjin. I dont think theres any practical application of this super.

Terumi's absence from arcades and lack of playtesting is really starting to show, imo.

You can't block Jarin in OD. Might be able to use it for some silliness as a result.

[Raccoon]

Isn't anyone excited for "Garengeki – The max version now wall bounds even midscreen?"

[Loli Bacon]

Is the current Orochi invulnerable on startup? If so, that sounds like a reversal proof mixup option, whereas 5C/6C RC can be DPd. Seems like a fair trade.

[Assassinine]

If it is reversal proof, it isnt because of the invulnerability on Orochi, but because of the blockstun of the move you use it from.

5C RC jC 2B has no gap to DP through. jC has no hitstop, and all 3 hits are overheads. The result is a very fast multi-high to low hit transition that must be blocked perfectly.

The timing can be adjusted to do 2 overheads into a low, or 1 overhead into a low, while still being frame-tight and thus DP-proof. If they swap block stances too soon they get fuzzied, too late they get hit low. This over-head to low transition is absurdly fast due to the lack of hitstop on jC.

Compared to Orochi mixup, this setup is similarly unreactable, reversal safe, and both combo starter options are N starters that dont require meter to follow up. There is more potential to regain meter, possibility of OD combos, and higher max damage with or without OD. Best of all, there is no superflash to tell them that the mixup is coming, it happens very quickly, forcing them to make a decision immediately.

5C RC mixup is simply better than Orochi mixup. The only advantage i can think of for Orochi mixup is that it can be done from a distance via 236D. 6C mixup isnt as strong as its 5C counterpart, but will likely be preferable to Orochi as it doesnt need RC to follow up any of its options, and you keep oki no matter which mixup option you use.

[NecroTheReaper]

Eh, there's the most basic pro orochi has in that its unburstable, but that's not a huge +

[Assassinine]

If you hit burst during superflash it will burst after superflash, but before Orochi hits. You blow Terumi away and he loses his 50 meter.

Unless you mean unable to burst after being hit. ~2500 unburstable on hit is ok i guess.

Edit:

Isn't anyone excited for "Garengeki - The max version now wall bounds even midscreen?"

Even more reason to use RC mixup over Orochi mixup. RC mixup midscreen will allow Garengeki, get the bonus proration that it grants, kick them across the screen, and allow you to run up and continue the combo for even more screen carry and giving oki. Orochi mixup will simply kick them across the screen, with no ability to follow up and no oki.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Assassinine

[Justice7541]

As if Terumi needed more damage of all things.