[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi Questions and Answers Thread

[Kiba]

So I'm trying to use the corner throw combo Konan's been using: Grab > 623C whiff > 214A whiff > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22BBut the DP keeps hitting my opponent

The DP can't whiff, it'll always hit. It's the j.214A that's supposed to whiff but if you're a little slow in timing the j.214A will hit and you won't be able to follow up. I also said this about it:

Anyway, the thing about the combo Konan is using is that the oki isn't as good. If you get greedy with the charging the opponent can roll past you, so it's no different than using the air ender in the corner. At least if you stick to Corner throw > 236C > 214B > 22B your opponent can't roll past you and you can afford to get a little more greedy with charge despite the damage difference.

[chzchan]

But since Tsubaki can't have nice things, she doesn't get OD versions of the REAL part of her drive (D moves) so as usual, you're stuck with what you've got.

 

What do you think it should have done?

[Monarch]

Really? Less oki? I don't see it..

[BatousaiJ]

So I'm trying to use the corner throw combo Konan's been using: Grab > 623C whiff > 214A whiff > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B

But the DP keeps hitting my opponent

 

You can't follow up on a whiff DP without RC or using charge so a 623C whiff > j.214A is impossible. 

 

Kiba's right about certain enders in the corner that doesn't finish with 22B being a bit risky for greedy charge plays since it gives them an option to roll out. If they try to roll forward out of the corner after 22B knockdown, they'll just be in front of you in forced block state for you to do whatever. 

 

One thing I like about ending corner j.214A ender is to charge momentarily and go directly into command grab. 

 

It's easy to time and you don't have to worry about whiffing the command the grab since the distance is just right and the timing is already set up perfectly by the 5D charge. 

[Airk]

What do you think it should have done?

 

Well, the obvious thing for it to do is actually improve our drive moves.

 

If you want to improve them for Neutral, the logical thing to do seems to be to improve frame advantage so we can actually do stuff with them in neutral.   Going back to like, CS1 frame advantage numbers on D specials would be nice. I mean, FFS, OD Dead Spike is +9.  Jin's OD 2D is +9, OD 6D is +18.  Giving us some stuff that's +1 to +5ish that consumes resources sure wouldn't be broken.  (+1 on 236D, +5 on 214D, +somethinglow on 22D, +alot on charged 22D.)  Alternatively, they could have done what they did for everyone else and make OD ACTUALLY IMPROVE our combos by adding something special to the moves involved (See: Ragna and Jin again).  In an ideal world, they'd have done BOTH because that's what most characters got.  But instead right now all our OD combos do is give us one cancel (OD > 5C) and provide some charge that we wouldn't otherwise have had.  (Okay, fine, a little more DD damage too.)

 

But no, I guess they figured, "Well, Hakumen's OD is super good, and all it does is give him meter! So Tsubaki's OD that gives her meter should also be super good! We'll just put some charge cancel stuff in for gravy!" completely forgetting that the only reason Hakumen's OD is any good is because they completely broke the rules of how combo damage works for his specials, because, I guess, it's super important that you should be able to spend all the meter you want when you get your meter for doing nothing, but if you have to put yourself in a CH state to get meter, it would be too good if you could actually blow it all on big damage.

 

Tell you what, Arc Sys.  You put all our D moves in the same "does not count character combo rate" status as Hakumen's specials and we'll call it even, eh? :P

[Kiba]

Deleted posts in this thread because it's irrelevant to this thread. It'll cause problems if I moved it, but honestly I didn't know it'll go on for that long. Furthermore some people were saying some weird things....

 

If you don't have a question/answer, do not post here.

[zaeris]

Guess I will ask, since I can't quite grasp tsuabki okizeme beside j236a ended which great and safe jump after 3c.

What exactly would you do with 22b ender i find it quite annoying that delay tech and dp great against tsuabki making you whiff b or c into maybe another bb or cc adding more recover.

So yeah is there a way to encourage my opponent to auto tech instead, cause i don't want to just mash a and get a low return from it, when I feels other characters can do much more.

[Kiba]

You can't do anything against delay techs, nothing at all afaik. Sometimes I use 2B but if done too quickly they end up just teching in the air and you don't want that.

 

You may be able to do 22B > 421A but I haven't tested that at all. Try playing around with it. Alternatively, I've seen Kuresu use 22B > 5D > jump C, I think it's good against delay techs but I'm unsure of just how useful it is.

[Monarch]

Is there any way to see rolls before they finish the animation? I'm trying to get better at catching them with 2B or 5C.

[Airk]

Roll is only like 40 frames long total, so you're just going to have to keep practicing to improve your recognition.  You can use the training dummy for this though - set them to random ground tech and just do corner combos.

[BatousaiJ]

I would recommend using 2AA option select instead of trying to "react" to people rolling.

 

By the time you see them rolling, most buttons will be too slow for you to pick them up with. 

 

If you 2AA when they're about to tech in whichever direction, you should pick them up and go into a small punish combo to knock them back down.

 

Starting from 2A, the damage won't be much to speak of but it's about letting them know you're prepared for that stuff.

 

If they neutral tech like normal, you recover fast enough from the 2A that you can throw out a stronger button like 5B/5C. 

[chzchan]

Do you need to space yourself perfectly for the 2AA to work? I keep getting grabbed mashed out of it if people neutral tech. Do I just need time 2AA better?

 

Hell, I get grab mashed out of everything unless the opponent has a DP.

[BatousaiJ]

You shouldn't be getting grabbed, check your timing for 2AA, you should have time to press another button to make it meaty by the time they're done neutral teching. 

[TeeJay]

(Let me know if this should be in the improvement/critique section). 

 

I'll preface by saying I've been playing CP only since the end of April so I'm really late to the party. 

 

I have a fundamental question about developing pressure and managing options seamlessly. I've been playing BB since CT which was my first invested fighting game. Since, I've played all iterations of BB pretty thoroughly (mostly with Litchi, though I'm playing more Tsubaki now), P4U (Labrys) quite a bit, SF4 series, and Guilty Gear (Robo-Ky). I feel most comfortable with my Labrys, then Robo-Ky and then earlier Litchi versions coming next. Keep in mind I also have systematic concepts for oki with those characters too. I've never been particularly good, though I can kind of hang a bit sometimes. 

 

I fit Sirlin's description of "The obsessed" pretty textbook. Feels like jazz improv: In a match, I seem to forget my options and tend to base my pressure on just a few variations rather than a full palette. With Tsubaki, I often forget the command grab in initial strings except after corner knockdowns, 5a pressure, 6a overheads in initial strings, frame traps, and end up using 5C (D) dash resets, 5C 6B reset to 5B, 5C 6B 22B, 5C 6BB 22B. The Robo Ky guide narrowed all options down to about 7, all of them covering each other which helped me a bit. 

 

I tried writing all of Tsubaki's pressure strings so I could cycle through them seamlessly. I initially had over 20, categorized in a chart by 2, 3, 4, and 5 moves. Later I decided to narrow down to about 8 focusing around 5BB. I don't go through them effortlessly in matches. I tend to get very 5BB 5C .... pretty early and then when I get some offensive flow, I start mixing 2B, overheads, command grabs, etc. I guess I say initial pressure, because after neutral, I tend to do the same few things when I get my opponents blocking. You won't see me do something like 5B (5D) dash 5B 2B 5C (5D) dash 5A micro-dash 5A micro-dash 5A 63214C without working into it. What generally happens is opponents would start disrespecting me in initial pressure (good players).  When I break one habit or explore a new option, I just put myself into another habit rather then using the entire bag of tricks. ie: thinking more overheads locks me into the 5B 6A, 5BB 6A, 5BB 2B 6A box. I wanted to kill the habit of jump counseling 5C on block so I hardly do it at all now. I wouldn't want to predetermine strings while in neutral and mess up hit confirms, though I've never tried that option. 

 

With Labrys, you can literally think after 5A or 5A 5B since her options are short and slower.  

 

Does anyone have ideas about how they approach pressure and develop it within the training room? How to transfer that into match situations where you can change options on the fly? Perhaps this is a general question about being aware of your options in any stage, since presence of mind is an important thing. 

[Zouf]

In my case, I analyze how my opponent plays (respectful or not) and what's his reversal options. Depending on his behaviour, i'd either go for the frametrap route (delaying 5BB / 5CC) or the safe route (6B > 5A).

 

But Tsubaki hasn't many options in the first place. She's too easily direspected, 6B is only at +1 so you can't effectively reset your blockstring, and the command throw is only useful if your opponent is either sleeping, too respectful (which don't happen against good players) or during the okizeme.

 

Thanks to the patch we can now do 5CC > 421A which is a pretty good option especially in the corner, but that's it. You'll also want to do some 5B > 6C, even though 6C got nerfed, it's still relialable in some case.

 

I don't see any problem with how you describe your game plan. You use the tools she got. In my opinion, you only need more experience.

[Airk]

I don't entirely agree with Zouf's assessment, in that I feel he's underselling the number of options available to Tsubaki;  Because our options are individually so bad, you need to use as many of them as possible to keep the opponent from being able to disrespect you the same way every time, which forces them to guess or react, both of which are better then "Here comes the overhead again, jabbin' time."

 

Anyway, since it seems like you already have a good idea of what your options are, for training mode, I think the best idea is probably just to set a dummy on block all and then do all the strings.  Like. Literally do:

 

5BB>6A>5C>5D

5A(xN) > 2A > Throw

5B > 5D > 5B

5BB > 2B > Dash 5A

5B > 6B > Dash 5A

5BB > 2B > 5CC > 5D

5B > 6C > j.C

5A > 5B > Delay 5C

5BB > Command throw (Whee!)

ETC

 

Go back to your list of 20.  Cycle through them. Do them ALL.  Mix up the order if possible.  Just practice all of them.   The idea is to just get comfortable doing these things.  Then when you get bored of this, try it against a CPU Dummy (Not Tager. :P Might not work super well with CPU Ragna either, 'cause he loves him some DPs.). 

 

Outside of that, all you can do is try to remain conscious of what you're doing during a match.

[TeeJay]

Thanks for the responses. Perhaps I just need to grind them out about a week. i may require a lot more practice than most regarding those things. I do see I need to dash 5a a whole lot more rather than dash 5B. But yes, I do use the dummy on "block everything" (random barrier blocking makes things interesting). 

 

I wish there was an online training mode. It would be nice to have two players just to take turns using strings on each other. 

 

I may have really bad carpal tunnel or some other neurological problem too, smh. 

[Airk]

I think there IS an online training mode? I think? I haven't tried, but I thought I heard people talking about it. x.x

 

Of course, the online functionality for this game is so poorly laid out and documented that even if the mode does exist, it's probably labelled something completely dumb.

[zaeris]

Thanks for the responses. Perhaps I just need to grind them out about a week. i may require a lot more practice than most regarding those things. I do see I need to dash 5a a whole lot more rather than dash 5B. But yes, I do use the dummy on "block everything" (random barrier blocking makes things interesting). 

 

I wish there was an online training mode. It would be nice to have two players just to take turns using strings on each other. 

 

I may have really bad carpal tunnel or some other neurological problem too, smh.

Maybe you are already using but often I would record my own combo and oki and reply it to see what the gaps are or escapes in training. Anyway, just need more experience, it's the key thing to improvement. In my opinion i don't like dashing 5 a but it does serve a good purpose of getting throw reject miss

[Monarch]

I don't quite remember which video I saw it on, but I remember seeing someone do "6A > 5CC > 6BB > 214B > 5C > 2CC > 236? > 214B > 22B"

I can't figure out which version of 236X was used to get the combo to work.

[chzchan]

I fit Sirlin's description of "The obsessed" pretty textbook. Feels like jazz improv: In a match, I seem to forget my options and tend to base my pressure on just a few variations rather than a full palette.

 

I tried writing all of Tsubaki's pressure strings so I could cycle through them seamlessly. I initially had over 20, categorized in a chart by 2, 3, 4, and 5 moves. Later I decided to narrow down to about 8 focusing around 5BB. I don't go through them effortlessly in matches. I tend to get very 5BB 5C .... pretty early and then when I get some offensive flow, I start mixing 2B, overheads, command grabs, etc. I guess I say initial pressure, because after neutral, I tend to do the same few things when I get my opponents blocking.

 

Oh boy do I have the same problems as you. I actually did the same thing with pressure strings in writing them down, but I didn't even bother categorizing them which led to many pieces of paper taped over my walls and many post-its. The thing I did different is not even narrow them down because there are so many of them.

 

The problem is that you really never get to use most of them because everyone mashes, so you default to the ones that are the easiest to pull off.

 

I have gotten around that by taking advantage of frame traps via delayed gatlings more than anything else, though even those don't work on people who are always buffering DP while in blockstun. Not going through the gatling strings as fast as you can really helps out in discouraging mashing.

 

I just swip swap around between delayed gatlings and charge cancelling and if I notice that my opponent is not mashing, then I allow myself to use everything else I have learned. This rarely happens, though, as opponents that don't mash usually try to jump barrier out of everything and are never on the ground.

[Airk]

If people are buffering DP while in blockstun, doing almost any sort of charge cancel and not autopiloting a dash 5A afterwards is a free punish for you.  Heck, "Just not pushing another button" after most things that aren't C moves will do that.

 

I agree that most people just jump backwards all the damn time (and a few love to backdash) and I haven't found a good way to deal with that. =/

[chzchan]

All I get out of punishing backwards jumping is a sort of crappy 5B > j.B  combo with an air ender. This is only if they aren't doing the jump barrier which is the bane of my existence. If I have charge, I try to go under them and back for a 214D crossup, but that usually doesn't work because of their distance off the ground, or if they have moves that prevent gravity from acting on them like Hazama's D moves in the air. Also it is easy to mash out of and I still have no idea how the hell invuln frames work for the 214 series. 

 

Keeping opponents on the ground is incredibly difficult as Tsubaki because our AA has no range. I try to snipe people out of the air with DP sometimes if I get frustrated enough, though, but that only really catches people who airdash forward after a super jump lot.

[TeeJay]

I think categorizing the pressure generally by your opponent's habits may make it easier. Perhaps anti-mash delay/staggers, anti-DP, anti-backdash/jump-out, patient blockers to just go in. Chzchan,  I definitely don't frame trap enough. I'll try that and still grind out all my options. I want to have a mental flashcard type of approach where I can just do everything on the fly in any order without hesitation. The tricky thing about listing is, it's hard to just seamlessly go trough strings in rapid-fire fashion. I'll try to get to that point. 

 

Thanks for all of the responses. 

[Airk]

All I get out of punishing backwards jumping is a sort of crappy 5B > j.B  combo with an air ender. This is only if they aren't doing the jump barrier which is the bane of my existence. If I have charge, I try to go under them and back for a 214D crossup, but that usually doesn't work because of their distance off the ground, or if they have moves that prevent gravity from acting on them like Hazama's D moves in the air. Also it is easy to mash out of and I still have no idea how the hell invuln frames work for the 214 series. 

 

Keeping opponents on the ground is incredibly difficult as Tsubaki because our AA has no range. I try to snipe people out of the air with DP sometimes if I get frustrated enough, though, but that only really catches people who airdash forward after a super jump lot.

 

FYI, 214 series is semi-useless against air attacks now - it has no invulnerability against them at all.  Now pretty much ALL it avoids are non-projectile grounded mid attacks.  It's pretty gimped, and really should have projectile invuln added, at the least.  It's basically another example of Tsubaki getting screwed by a "system wide" change.